D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

[ECMO3]

The problem is that you don't get to be a Battlemaster all the time, you're only a Battlemaster SOME of the time. To say nothing of the fact that your Battlemaster is basically nothing outside of combat. You get an Artisan's Tool proficiency (OOOOH! Nice flavor but pretty useless 99% of the time becaus it have almost no problem solving ability) and you get Know your Enemy, only really gives you information related to combat. It took them YEARS to give us maneuvers in Tasha's that can do stuff outside of battle... which goes back to being a Batlemaster less than 2 minutes in a day.

To be clear, MOST of the time. Your battle master has plenty to do out of combat considering he gets all the fighter abilities and whatever skills and abilities came with your background and race.

The idea that a battlemaster is completely defined by his subclass is false to start with. That said alchemists tools is an excelent artisan's tool.

An Illusionist is an Illusionist all day long all the time. The Battlemaster is only that part time and only during combat.

You have this backwards as I will illustrate. Math matters.

To start with are we comparing subclasses or classes with subclasses? School if illusion as a subclass gives you very little on top of your wizard, far less than battlemaster gives over fighter and honestly less than battlemaster even if you had no maneuvers and only the features you criticize. Schoolof illusion gives you an enhanced minor illusion cantrip, maleable illusions, illusury self and at very high level illusory reality. Those are all going to be very limited, far less uses than the battlemaster will get with maneuvers.

Assuming we are comparing a school of illusion wizard to a battlemaster fighter:

A third level battlemaster can do 12 maneuvers a day. A third level wizard can cast 7 spells a day including the 1 he gets back with arcane recovery.

A 7th level battlemaster can do 15 maneuvers a day. A 7th level wizard can cast a maximum of 13 spells a day,. That assumes he gets back 2 first and 1 second level with arcane recovery.

A 15th level battlemaster can do 18 maneuvers a day, plus he gets one every time he rolls initiative if he has none. Assuming you purposely burn through them as fast as possible in the first fight after a rest, this means you should get 21 a day if you have 6 fights distributed evenly with 2 rests. A 15th level wizard can cast 18 spells without Arcane recovery and up to 7 more 1st level spells with AR.

To be clear the exact level the wizard passes the battlemaster in spells vs maneuvers is 8th, but that assumes he only gets back 1st level spell slots with arcane recovery.

Now to elaborate further, in addition to the battlemaster maneuvers the battlemaster also has 2nd wind, Action surge, and indomitable.

So you actually have this backwards - until high level the wizard will use his spells BEFORE the battlemaster runs out of maneuvers and the wizard will have less abilities to bring to the fight after he runs out meaning he is a wizard for a smaller portion of the day.

Noncombat the wizard is bringing rituals and the battlemaster is bringing his Alchemist tools and making poitions of healing, oil, alchemists fire, antitoxin and acid. The wizard might have a slight edge here but not an overwhelming one and not one to overcome the difference in combat. If you are choose something else as your artisan's tool, well that is on you.

This would be a great point for you if you used the Arcane Archer instead of the battlemaster, but the numbers do not support this hypothesis with the battlemaster.

Most fighting styles are like that: once a condition is met, you get the bonus and the condition are usually pretty simple: use this weapon loadout, wea this armor, or someone triggers condition X for you to use your Reaction. There's no tradeoff when using a fighting style. Same with the Champion's crit range. You just GET it whenever you throw a d20.

No most fighting styles aren't like that. Five out of 33 options are. Six if I give you GWF. That is not most.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Only the Sith deal in absolutes.

Each blow is narrated individually. Some might strike glancing blows. Some might be parried or dodged at the last minute. Some might luckily glance off armor, or they might luckily duck at the precisely right moment. Some might hit with the flat of the blade, jarring your opponent.

Some actually cut or pierce your opponent as well, with the hit that takes them to 0 likely a critical wound.

This is a silly point you keep circling. I'm not even actually disagreeing with you about whatever are or are not hp.

It is interesting how more than one of your "narrated blows" could be used equally well for "misses" as the "hits" you seem to think they are describing. Preferences are preferences I guess.

And for the last time..

This..is..beside..the..point.

The point is that "in real life" a fighter can sometimes just...win..a fight..immediately. No glancing blows, no prior demoralization required, and this isn't something 5e models well.

The nature of the song and dance might be different, but it's still a required song and dance.

 

[Flamestrike]

The point is that "in real life" a fighter can sometimes just...win..a fight..immediately. No glancing blows, no prior demoralization required, and this isn't something 5e models well.

That largely depends on how you narrate it though doesn't it?

And when it comes to 'killing in a single blow with strike through the heart or eye', at literally 3rd level on a greatsword crit we're talking about 4d6+2d8 (rr 1,s and 2s) plus 13 for around 40 points of damage on average.

Thats enough to kill a Grizzly or a Tiger with one strike. How is that not impressive?

40 damage at 3rd level is pretty hard to beat by any class, and the only resource usage is 1 superiority dice (that comes back on a short rest).

 

[pemerton]

At the very least if we want any kind of consistency in the fiction we have to be willing to reassess what physical training is capable of in D&D if we're not willing to provide space for divine intervention. D&D fighters regularly face down things that would be impossible for even the most highly trained people to fight. If you can face down a marilith you better be way more skilled of an athlete than even a genetic freak like Rob Grankowski or Usain Bolt.

Right.

In the "fair trap" thread everyone was assuming that we can model the behaviour of a gelatinous cube getting squished by a falling rock using ordinary fluid mechanics. But clearly the fluid mechanics of the world of D&D aren't ordinary, given that dragons can fly! Or to put it another way, the "realism" of D&D is that of surface level tropes and expectations, not deep conformity to actual physical law.

At which point it doesn't really matter whether we call it divine favour or fantasy physics - either way, fighters are clearly at least as tough as Conan (if they're double-digit levels) and presumably more like Beowulf if they're closing in on 20th.

 

[Maxperson]

Unless he came back as a Lich!!! Ah ah!

My friend, it seems you've confused Liches and Vampires. That's clearly The Count from Sesame Street.

 

[Flamestrike]

At which point it doesn't really matter whether we call it divine favour or fantasy physics - either way, fighters are clearly at least as tough as Conan (if they're double-digit levels) and presumably more like Beowulf if they're closing in on 20th.

From even mid levels (6th, Con 16, HP 62HP) a Barbarian can get angry and reliably leap off the Empire State building, walking away immediately afterwards for lunch.

Whether you want to narrate that as a Superhero landing, or as him being saved by some lucky contrivance (he falls on a stack of mattresses) is up to you.

 

[Flamestrike]

Also, I've posted a thread to test any kind of 'martial/ caster' imbalance on here.

15th level play.

If any of you still think this 'imbalance' exists, now is your chance to prove it to me in there.

 

[Maxperson]

To be clear, MOST of the time. Your battle master has plenty to do out of combat considering he gets all the fighter abilities and whatever skills and abilities came with your background and race.

The idea that a battlemaster is completely defined by his subclass is false to start with. That said alchemists tools is an excelent artisan's tool.



You have this backwards as I will illustrate. Math matters.

To start with are we comparing subclasses or classes with subclasses? School if illusion as a subclass gives you very little on top of your wizard, far less than battlemaster gives over fighter and honestly less than battlemaster even if you had no maneuvers and only the features you criticize. Schoolof illusion gives you an enhanced minor illusion cantrip, maleable illusions, illusury self and at very high level illusory reality. Those are all going to be very limited, far less uses than the battlemaster will get with maneuvers.

Assuming we are comparing a school of illusion wizard to a battlemaster fighter:

A third level battlemaster can do 12 maneuvers a day. A third level wizard can cast 7 spells a day including the 1 he gets back with arcane recovery.

A 7th level battlemaster can do 15 maneuvers a day. A 7th level wizard can cast a maximum of 13 spells a day,. That assumes he gets back 2 first and 1 second level with arcane recovery.

A 15th level battlemaster can do 18 maneuvers a day, plus he gets one every time he rolls initiative if he has none. Assuming you purposely burn through them as fast as possible in the first fight after a rest, this means you should get 21 a day if you have 6 fights distributed evenly with 2 rests. A 15th level wizard can cast 18 spells without Arcane recovery and up to 7 more 1st level spells with AR.

To be clear the exact level the wizard passes the battlemaster in spells vs maneuvers is 8th, but that assumes he only gets back 1st level spell slots with arcane recovery.

Now to elaborate further, in addition to the battlemaster maneuvers the battlemaster also has 2nd wind, Action surge, and indomitable.

So you actually have this backwards - until high level the wizard will use his spells BEFORE the battlemaster runs out of maneuvers and the wizard will have less abilities to bring to the fight after he runs out meaning he is a wizard for a smaller portion of the day.

Noncombat the wizard is bringing rituals and the battlemaster is bringing his Alchemist tools and making poitions of healing, oil, alchemists fire, antitoxin and acid. The wizard might have a slight edge here but not an overwhelming one and not one to overcome the difference in combat. If you are choose something else as your artisan's tool, well that is on you.

This would be a great point for you if you used the Arcane Archer instead of the battlemaster, but the numbers do not support this hypothesis with the battlemaster.

You're really focused on who has more features, rather than what the features are. That's a major mistake. The reason that the Illusionist gets fewer abilities on top of Wizard than Battle Master gets on top of Fighter, is that spellcasting is far and away the most complex feature that exists.

Let's look at the 7th level Battle Master with his 15 maneuvers per day. He has 5 maneuvers that he can choose from. That's it. He has 5 options that he can repeat. That 7th level Wizard with his 13 spells? At a minimum his Int is 16 by then, so he has 10 different spells prepared PLUS 4 cantrips, giving him 1 less option to choose from than a Battle Master has uses of his Maneuvers, and nearly 3x as many different things that he can do in any given round.

That Battle Master has 5 possible decisions to make and they will generally affect the guy he's attacking and that's it. That 7th level Wizard just looking at third level spells only might be having to decide whether to use Lightning Bolt, Fireball or Haste. How many enemies can he get in the Lightning Bolt vs. Fireball? Will any party members be in the spell? Are these creatures resistant or vulnerable to the energy type? Would haste be better due to the advantages it gives the party? And again, that's not even including all of the other possible spells of other levels. Meanwhile the Battle Master is like... Do I knock this one guy down or do I try and disarm this one guy?

The complexity of a Wizard is head and shoulders above ANY type of Fighter.

 

[Asisreo]

At the very least if we want any kind of consistency in the fiction we have to be willing to reassess what physical training is capable of in D&D if we're not willing to provide space for divine intervention. D&D fighters regularly face down things that would be impossible for even the most highly trained people to fight. If you can face down a marilith you better be way more skilled of an athlete than even a genetic freak like Rob Grankowski or Usain Bolt.

I've brought this up earlier but I think its important to recognize "martial" isn't a class and has no existing fiction tied to it.

The martial classes have their own individual fictions tied to them. And these fictions are not equal across all situations.

The fiction of the fighter is to be a fighter. You're specifically not looking for any sort of out-of-combat solutions because you thrive in fights. You're not the "rock-lifter" or the "great climber," you're specialized in fighting, period.

Barbarians, on the other hand, are proficient fighters but less flexible. They are, however, much more useful outside of combat. If your DM rules iron doors are broken at DC 20, the barbarian stops needing to roll, period, at level 18 and automatically gets to DC24 by default, no rolling at level 20. Berserkers can force frightened on characters with relatively low wisdom at-will. They can intimidate a king with their presence and make negotiations easier. Totem Warrior has a sleuth of useful OoC uses like Spirit Seeker, Aspect of the Beast, and Spirit Walker.

 

[Flamestrike]

Barbarians, on the other hand, are proficient fighters but less flexible. They are, however, much more useful outside of combat. If your DM rules iron doors are broken at DC 20, the barbarian stops needing to roll, period, at level 18 and automatically gets to DC24 by default, no rolling at level 20. Berserkers can force frightened on characters with relatively low wisdom at-will. They can intimidate a king with their presence and make negotiations easier. Totem Warrior has a sleuth of useful OoC uses like Spirit Seeker, Aspect of the Beast, and Spirit Walker.

Fighters can do all the above as well just using their class features. In addition to the two bonus feats (over that of Barbarians) they get allowing them to take 'Skilled' and Skill Expert', they can take a Fighting style that gives them a d6 superiority dice to use on Charisma checks or Int and Wisdom checks (refreshing on a short rest, with that dice being basically available in every social situation).

Battlemasters can do all the above even more reliably, and they can also size up people in social situations as well (Know thy enemy).

There is nothing stopping fighters from being incredibly effective outside of combat, but the reality is that most people who play fighters burn feats and ASIs on fighting feats, becuase they dont really care about the other pillars outside of fighting.

It's like if there was a class called 'Silver tongued talker' as well as 'Fighter'. People that gravitated to each class probably have very different views on the combat and social pillars.