D&D 5E Spellcasters and Balance in 5e: A Poll

[Maxperson]

I played a Shepperd Druid and I thought Conjure Animal was TOO STRONG. Especially if your DM lets you pick and doesn't 'gotcha!' you with useless animals. And the Druid could just cheese all sorts of stealth mission and exploration challenge through clever use of Wild Shape. I felt the Druid was too powerful and I got bored of it after a while. Then I shifted to a Monk and the whiplash was too much... I should have went with the Rogue concept I had in mind... hmm...

If I ever play in a game that's a bit less serious than normal, I plan on using the Tasha's rules to create a new race. I'm going to make a Mooseman, give him Circle of the Stars Druid and then name him Bulltwinkle. I'm also going to do whatever it takes to get the DM to give me a Rust Bag of Tricks(subbing out rat for rabbit) in the shape of a top hat, so that I can pull both rabbits and lions out of my hat.

 

[pemerton]

Like the 4e Epic Destiny (was that Horizon Walker or something else?) who can just WALK to any place in the multiverse in about 24 hrs by finding 'shortcuts'. It's as reliable as a spell... but it's a MARTIAL Epic Destiny.

I did have this in mind, yes - it's the Dark Wanderer in Martial Power, an Epic Destiny for rangers and rogues:

Dark Road (24th level): You can walk to any destination you desire in a single, uninterrupted 24-hour period of walking. No matter how distant the location, or how many planes separate you from it, you reach the destination 24 hours after you begin, finding shortcuts, portals, or other modes of transport previously unknown to you. You do not require any rest, food, or water during this travel, except to recharge powers and regain healing surges. During your journey, you are safe from hazards, attacks, and other dangers.​

​

When choosing a destination, you must be specific. If your destination is within a structure, such as a particular room within a castle, the long walk leads you to the structure’s main entrance, not inside the structure.​

​

You can choose to be accompanied by a number of characters equal to 5 + your Wisdom modifier, all of whom share the benefit of this class feature.​

I frequently read posts saying that 4e limited PC options by spelling things out as abilities like this. The flip side of that has to be that this sort of thing can be done using the ability/skill system in 5e.

The thing about high level casters is not that they can solve the problem of travelling to another plane with a spell; it's that they can approach solving an entirely different problem by travelling to another plane, or teleporting the party across the world, or summoning an outsider for a chat.

And spells generally just work. The problem with skills in D&D is that if we do x, then we can do y, then we can do Z, doesn't really work too well, but there's not much guarantee you can do X, so thinking too far ahead doesn't work.

Spells let X just happen. If travelling to another plane is the first step to possibly solving the problem and your chance of success is uncertain, both probability wise, but also in regard to the steps involved, then you're less likely to even throw it on the table.

This is why I prefer skill challenge-style resolution, where the system imposes a finite number of steps to be achieved, and the particular means adopted to pursue those steps tend to shape the fiction rather than the probabilities. (Though spells/rituals, or abilities like Dark Road, might allow automatic success on certain checks.)

but aren't portals a bit boring? If you want the players to actually find ways to travel to other planes why can't they do it by sailing into the far west, abseiling down into a bottomless crevasse, climbing the mountain of the gods, or by building a giant hot air balloon and going up to heaven?

I've got no objection to any of that. In my 4e campaign the PCs travelled to the land of the winter fey, where they found an icy cliff that they were able to fly down (in their Thundercloud Tower) to enter (via the Obelisk of Ice) the Elemental Chaos.

I think the point still stands, that in principal these sorts of ways from place to place might be, and arguably ought to be, knowable to, and traversable by, those who are not mages.

in a world where a spell can get you to plane shift, it is completely natural for players (and their characters) to not even consider finding a portal the "hard way". This is a lot like the situation described in the Asimov story The Feeling of Power where even scientists had lost the skill of basic arithmetic, because computers did it for them. Magic is like technology in d&d, and plane shift is Uber and GPS all in one. Could the players get there without it? Sure. But it seems easier for them to find someone with plane shift than to figure it out without it entirely.

To me, this seems to shift the discussion from what, in the fiction, martial PCs are able to do to how, at the table, do we resolve declared actions? Of course, in the fiction traversing a portal, or abseiling to the bottom of a bottomless crevasse, is probably more arduous than casting a spell. But at the table, should it be the more arduous declared action? What is the benefit - if any - to the players of having access to the easier (spell-based) method of travel? The impression I get from the Dark Road ability text is that, for the Dark Walker, this an arduous journey that only they can accomplish - but at the table it seems a pretty straightforward ability to use.

Perhaps in the fiction there is a reason why getting there quickly might be helpful. But that won't always be the case.

Again, this is why I like the skill challenge or similar-structured approach to resolving these out-of-combat challenges. The fiction can be what it needs to be, but the process at the table is rendered manageable, and spell/ritual-based solutions don't present themselves as the only options.

 

[Sithlord]

Nomwayn

I played a Shepperd Druid and I thought Conjure Animal was TOO STRONG. Especially if your DM lets you pick and doesn't 'gotcha!' you with useless animals. And the Druid could just cheese all sorts of stealth mission and exploration challenge through clever use of Wild Shape. I felt the Druid was too powerful and I got bored of it after a while. Then I shifted to a Monk and the whiplash was too much... I should have went with the Rogue concept I had in mind... hmm...

Like the 4e Epic Destiny (was that Horizon Walker or something else?) who can just WALK to any place in the multiverse in about 24 hrs by finding 'shortcuts'. It's as reliable as a spell... but it's a MARTIAL Epic Destiny.

No way would I allow something like that not being extremely magical in source. I have no problem with a ranger being able to do that. But call it what it is

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Nomwayn

No way would I allow something like that not being extremely magical in source. I have no problem with a ranger being able to do that. But call it what it is

But it's a magical world. Perhaps such shortcuts simply exist and can be utilised by those who know of them?

 

[pemerton]

But it's a magical world. Perhaps such shortcuts simply exist and can be utilised by those who know of them?

So much this.

 

[TwoSix]

Nomwayn

No way would I allow something like that not being extremely magical in source. I have no problem with a ranger being able to do that. But call it what it is

"Magic" and "supernatural" are not synonyms in a D&D-type fantasy world.

 

[Undrave]

Nomwayn

No way would I allow something like that not being extremely magical in source. I have no problem with a ranger being able to do that. But call it what it is

The 'shortcuts' you find include magical portals and stuff, but that doesn't mean you FINDING them need to be magical.

Also, as you can see above, this was a level 24 ability of your Epic Destiny, the path you take to immortality. That's the point where you break away from the constraints of the mundane. It is not 'extremely magical', but it is MYTHICAL.

 

[Xetheral]

I'm reading through the latter 10 pages of this thread. This post stood out to me.

I think the claim is true. What puzzles me, though, is why those people play a RPG which has all the mechanical minutiae of D&D and relies on GM management of spotlight and consequences to work around the outcomes of those minutiae? Why not just play a game that cuts to the chase: that foregrounds these elements of colour and theme and doesn't faff around with all the fiddly and potentially unbalanced stuff? (To itemise them all would be a lifetime's work: but let's start with the rules for calculating AC and the various ways these interact with DEX, speed and stealth; the rules for weapon properties; the action economy; spell durations; minor differences in skill bonuses; etc.)

Speaking only for myself, I choose D&D because that "minutiae" is sufficient to create the perception that the rules are modeling the game world, and because they provide enough detail to make mechanically modeling a character concept a fun exercise. In other words, the minutiae of D&D create a model that both simulates the game world and is fun to interact with. Yes, the same minutiae can create work for the DM to make sure that everyone continues to have fun, but I find that pretty easy to do, especially in 5e.

By contrast, in my experience (mostly PbtA, Storium, some others), systems that "foreground[]... elements of color and theme" often dispense with or de-emphasize the idea that the system is modeling the game world and instead focus the mechanics on crafting the story itself. That's cool, but it's just not the type of game I prefer to play--the resulting stories haven't felt to me like they have the same "heft" (for lack of a better term) as the stories that emerge from games that include a stronger element of mechanically modeling the game world. Also, I haven't found the play experience to be as engaging as I find 5e.

There may be systems I haven't yet tried that foreground elements of color and theme and would fit my preferences even better than D&D 5e does. If so, great--I look forward to trying them! But 5e overall fits my preferences really well, so it's not like I'm just settling with 5e.

 

[Sithlord]

I did have this in mind, yes - it's the Dark Wanderer in Martial Power, an Epic Destiny for rangers and rogues:

Dark Road (24th level): You can walk to any destination you desire in a single, uninterrupted 24-hour period of walking. No matter how distant the location, or how many planes separate you from it, you reach the destination 24 hours after you begin, finding shortcuts, portals, or other modes of transport previously unknown to you. You do not require any rest, food, or water during this travel, except to recharge powers and regain healing surges. During your journey, you are safe from hazards, attacks, and other dangers.​

​

When choosing a destination, you must be specific. If your destination is within a structure, such as a particular room within a castle, the long walk leads you to the structure’s main entrance, not inside the structure.​

​

You can choose to be accompanied by a number of characters equal to 5 + your Wisdom modifier, all of whom share the benefit of this class feature.​

I frequently read posts saying that 4e limited PC options by spelling things out as abilities like this. The flip side of that has to be that this sort of thing can be done using the ability/skill system in 5e.


This is why I prefer skill challenge-style resolution, where the system imposes a finite number of steps to be achieved, and the particular means adopted to pursue those steps tend to shape the fiction rather than the probabilities. (Though spells/rituals, or abilities like Dark Road, might allow automatic success on certain checks.)


I've got no objection to any of that. In my 4e campaign the PCs travelled to the land of the winter fey, where they found an icy cliff that they were able to fly down (in their Thundercloud Tower) to enter (via the Obelisk of Ice) the Elemental Chaos.

I think the point still stands, that in principal these sorts of ways from place to place might be, and arguably ought to be, knowable to, and traversable by, those who are not mages.


To me, this seems to shift the discussion from what, in the fiction, martial PCs are able to do to how, at the table, do we resolve declared actions? Of course, in the fiction traversing a portal, or abseiling to the bottom of a bottomless crevasse, is probably more arduous than casting a spell. But at the table, should it be the more arduous declared action? What is the benefit - if any - to the players of having access to the easier (spell-based) method of travel? The impression I get from the Dark Road ability text is that, for the Dark Walker, this an arduous journey that only they can accomplish - but at the table it seems a pretty straightforward ability to use.

Perhaps in the fiction there is a reason why getting there quickly might be helpful. But that won't always be the case.

Again, this is why I like the skill challenge or similar-structured approach to resolving these out-of-combat challenges. The fiction can be what it needs to be, but the process at the table is rendered manageable, and spell/ritual-based solutions don't present themselves as the only options.

I like the ability. The only problem in my games is I’m such a planescape junky that I have players doing that before they are 4th level.

 

[Undrave]

I like the ability. The only problem in my games is I’m such a planescape junky that I have players doing that before they are 4th level.

Just emphasize the part that says:

You do not require any rest, food, or water during this travel, except to recharge powers and regain healing surges. During your journey, you are safe from hazards, attacks, and other dangers.

Instead of the rest?