TSR TSR (2) Confirms TSR (3)'s Acquisition of Trademark (Updated!)

Jayson Elliot registered the TSR trademark back in 2011 and used it to launch Gygax Magazine along with Ernie and Luke Gygax. The two Gygax's left the company a few years later after Gary Gygax's (co-founder of TSR (1) back in the 1970s) widow, Gail Gygax, forced the closure of Gygax Magazine. Then, earlier this year, TSR (3) swooped in on the TSR trademark, after Jayson Elliot accidentally let it lapse, as TSR (2) confirms:

We have owned the TSR trademark since 2011. Last year, we missed a filing date, and another company registered it, though we are still using it in commerce. While we could win a lawsuit, we frankly don't have the money to litigate. So, we're licensing it back from them.

As a result, there are two companies now using the name TSR. You can tell when it's us because we're the only ones using the new logo.

They're opening a museum in Lake Geneva at the old TSR house, and we wish them success with it, it's important to celebrate the legacy that Gary Gygax created.

Ernie Gygax, formerly of TSR (1) under Gary Gygax, then working with Jayson Elliot as part of TSR (2), is one of the founders of of TSR (3), and confirmed in his (now infamous) interview --

The other TSR is a licensee because [Jayson Elliot] let it lapse. But he had absolutely ... love for the game and the products. There was no reason to say 'oh you've screwed up, oh it's all ours, ha ha ha ha!' Instead, Justin [LaNasa] came to him and said ... we love that you're doing Top Secret things, we have a much broader goal for the whole thing. But there's no reason for you to stop or even have any troubles. Justin said, I'll take care of the paperwork, you just give me $10 a year, and you put out all this love for old school gaming that you can. And we appreciate that you were there to try and pick up things, and you produced Gygax Magazine, for in its time that you're also working on a game that you love to play ... because Top Secret was Jayson's love, as a young man.

TSR (2), still run by Jayson Elliot, publishes Top Secret, and is not connected to TSR (3) other than now having to license it’s own name from them. TSR (3) has also registered the trademark to Star Frontiers, a game owned by and still currently sold by D&D-owner WotC.

In other news the GYGAX trademark appears to have lapsed.

UPDATE! TSR (2) has decided NOT to license its own name from TSR (3):

Update to our earlier tweet - we will NOT be licensing anything from the new company claiming rights to the TSR logos. We are not working with them in any fashion.

 

[Jer]

So if Hasbro were so inclined, they have multiple avenues to sue both TSR Games (Elliot) and TSR Games (LaNasa) because Hasbro owns TSR Inc (Gygax/Kaye/Blume). Doing so would make them look overly litigious and might cause PR issues for Wizards of the Coast, so the question will be whether they think the damage to their brand by consumer confusion between TSR Games (Elliot) or TSR Games (LaNasa) using the TSR trademark and TSR Games (LaNasa) using their copyrighted material is more than any damage from looking like a corporate bully.

How does the Star Frontiers trademark enter into this? Since Wizards is still selling books with the Star Frontiers name on them (via DriveThruRPG) does it muddy things up when/if TSR Games (LaNassa) starts publishing their own Star Frontiers books?

(I actually think this is a more theoretical question than a real one - Fred Hicks at Evil Hat had the Star Frontiers trademark for a while, couldn't get Wizards to negotiate a license, decided that the existing Star Frontiers market didn't want a new game with the same name, and eventually let it lapse. I don't see that calculus changing with this new TSR either - the folks who want a new Star Frontiers game want Star Frontiers not some other setting and game that uses the same name).

 

[MoonSong]

Nah, not caring about things is boring.

Yeah, what is the internet for if not for discussing with people you'll never see in person about irrelevant things that don't matter?

 

[Abstruse]

Somewhere in one of the other threads, I believe someone mentioned that failure to defend a trademark, esp. one where the registration has lapsed, could actually be used of evidence that you no longer have a claim to it. If that's true (and I'm guessing it's a "Well, it's complicated" answer), Hasbro might have to go after the TSRs who are trying to use them. Is there any accuracy to that?

Failure to defend a trademark is not the same as letting a registered trademark lapse. This is actually a very good example, actually. Wizards let the registration lapse even though they continued to use the trademark for reprints. That is not a lack of defense of the trademark in and of itself because they continued to use it and their rights are protected under common law.

When TSR Games (Elliot) registered the trademark in 2011 and began using it and Wizards/Hasbro did not respond to their use of the trademark, that is a failure to defend the trademark. Another company in the same industry began using it.

However, that would be a defense that TSR Games (Elliot) or TSR Games (LaNasa) could use if they are sued on trademark grounds by Wizards/Hasbro - that by not defending the trademark from 2011 onward, they lost the right to protection under trademark law. Or at least lost protection against TSR Games (Elliot) but they could argue they're defending the trademark against TSR Games (LaNasa). And both arguments are potentially valid, it depends on what arguments are made and what a judge decides. This is what I mean by intellectual property law is complicated - both are right and both are wrong depending on how the facts are presented.

 

[Abstruse]

How does the Star Frontiers trademark enter into this? Since Wizards is still selling books with the Star Frontiers name on them (via DriveThruRPG) does it muddy things up when/if TSR Games (LaNassa) starts publishing their own Star Frontiers books?

(I actually think this is a more theoretical question than a real one - Fred Hicks at Evil Hat had the Star Frontiers trademark for a while, couldn't get Wizards to negotiate a license, decided that the existing Star Frontiers market didn't want a new game with the same name, and eventually let it lapse. I don't see that calculus changing with this new TSR either - the folks who want a new Star Frontiers game want Star Frontiers not some other setting and game that uses the same name).

Star Frontiers is a bit more clear-cut. Evil Hat attempted to register the trademark but did not get it because Wizards/Hasbro published reprints of the original Star Frontiers. Because those reprints are still in circulation, they are actively using the trademark in commerce. So even if they don't have the trademark currently registered, they can exert control over it at any time by taking legal action (typically just a cease and desist order rather than a full-out lawsuit).

It's not entirely clear if that's what happened with Evil Hat or if Evil Hat decided to withdraw the trademark registration voluntarily when WotC published the reprints. It didn't get much coverage when nothing ended up coming of it.

 

[Azzy]

Huh. Did some thinking and found I could not care less about this.

I love when people care enough to tell us that they don't care.

 

[Jer]

Star Frontiers is a bit more clear-cut. Evil Hat attempted to register the trademark but did not get it because Wizards/Hasbro published reprints of the original Star Frontiers. Because those reprints are still in circulation, they are actively using the trademark in commerce. So even if they don't have the trademark currently registered, they can exert control over it at any time by taking legal action (typically just a cease and desist order rather than a full-out lawsuit).

That's what it was sounding like, but I wasn't sure. It really sounds like if they try to do anything with the SF mark they'll be stopped in their tracks and have to rebrand anyway.

It's not entirely clear if that's what happened with Evil Hat or if Evil Hat decided to withdraw the trademark registration voluntarily when WotC published the reprints. It didn't get much coverage when nothing ended up coming of it.

Fred Hicks said the other day on Twitter when the first "NuTSR trademarks Star Frontiers" story hit that he basically tried to work it out with Wizards, they had no interest, so he gave it up.

 

[imagineGod]

I think there are ways to criticize ideas someone had without making it about them. I think a bit too much of criticism of people, like Gary Gygax for instance, is pointed in a tone directed at the person rather than their ideas. One reason to "not speak ill of the dead" is they cannot defend themselves. Another is the context is likely obscured by time, and they may well have had a varied view at different times in their lives even on the same topic. And finally, we're all going to be where they are now, some day.

So I think we can focus on "I think the idea that women will never appreciate role playing games is flawed and, though likely strongly influenced by societal norms at the time, even in that context I wish a more enlightened view had been taken and more attempts to make the game and gamers more open to women as role players earlier," without as much focus on "Screw that guy for being sexist."

I hope you get many likes here for this thoughtful response.

Let see if at least five likes in 30 minutes.

 

[Gradine]

Yeah but sometimes you care so much about other people knowing that you don't care, y'know?

 

[Marc_C]

I want to vomit.

 

[overgeeked]

Nah, not caring about things is boring.

Not caring and not needing to tell others how much you don’t care is the best. Performative indifference is...odd.