TSR Companies & Freelancers Distance Themselves From The New TSR

The new TSR (which I refer to as TSR3 to avoid confusion) has doubled down on its stance--which has been widely condemned online--via an ongoing series of tweets and replies from its TSR Games, Giantlands, and Dungeon Hobby Museum social media accounts (possibly operated by Justin LaNasa) in an astonishing PR campaign which makes the original interview which sparked off the controversy look mild in comparison. Various entities are moving to distance themselves from the company and its activities, including TSR2, the company founded in 2011 by Jayson Elliot, which has now declared that it will not be using the name TSR any longer. Other companies including Gen Con and freelancers such as Jeff Dee have also made statements.

For reference -- TSR1 is the (no longer existing) company which launched D&D in 1974, TSR2 is the company founded by Jayson Elliot in 2011 to create Gygax Magazine and which currently publishes the Top Secret RPG, and TSR3 is the newly launched company.

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Catch up on my previous coverage of this story:

TSR - Ernie Gygax on New TSR, WotC Beefs, Trademarks, Licensees, 5E, & More

A YouTube channel, 'Live From the Bunker', interviewed Ernie Gygax about the new TSR. I've watched and decided to try to transcribe the most relevant parts of it, but the full hour-long video is below if you want to see the whole interview and full context. Ernie Gygax is one of D&D...

www.enworld.org

TSR - TSR (2) Confirms TSR (3)'s Acquisition of Trademark (Updated!)

Jayson Elliot registered the TSR trademark back in 2011 and used it to launch Gygax Magazine along with Ernie and Luke Gygax. The two Gygax's left the company a few years later after Gary Gygax's (co-founder of TSR (1) back in the 1970s) widow, Gail Gygax, forced the closure of Gygax Magazine...

www.enworld.org

A TSR Announces a Star Frontiers Reboot

One of the new TSRs (yes there are now two TSRs!) has announced a reboot of Star Frontiers, the sci-fi game made by the original TSR back in the 1980s. Star Frontiers was a percentile dice roleplaying game set in a galaxy with four races (Human, Dralasite, Vrusk, and Yazirian) which were re-used...

www.enworld.org

TSR - TSR Is Back.... Again!

TSR is back... again! A new company, using the name and logo of the original publisher of Dungeons & Dragons has just been launched, along with a limited edition new game called Giantlands, and a theme park! But first, some history! Because this isn't the first time TSR has been resurrected...

www.enworld.org

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TSR3's social media accounts initially sought to distance the company from Ernie Gygax's statements, but within a few hours had reversed course and doubled down on his stance. Note that there have been dozens of social media posts from the company over the last few days, and still continuing as I type this, and I don't intend to share them all here.

(Thanks to Daniel Fox for sharing screenshots below via Twitter).

TSR2 -- "Update to our earlier tweet - we will NOT be licensing anything from the new company claiming rights to the TSR logos. We are not working with them in any fashion."

Gen Con -- "Gen Con is not associated with TSR Games and we don't support their recent statements. While the foundation of Gen Con is tied with the history of TTRPGs, our goal is to build off the good, acknowledge the bad, and work toward a present free from racism, misogyny, and homophobia."

Gen Con has also indicated that they do not intend to allow TSR3 at the convention.

GAMA (the Game Manufacturers Association) -- "We’re aware of the appalling statements published by TSR Games and their founder - GAMA does not condone nor agree with any part of it. We pride ourselves on supporting and promoting inclusivity always. Our motto is “A game at every table, a table for everyone”. Transphobia, racism, and sexism will not be tolerated. That means that TSR is not welcome at Origins Game Fair, GAMA Expo or any event affiliated with our organization."

Jeff Dee -- "There is a rumor going around that I am part of this new TSR company. That is not accurate. I have done some work for them as a freelance artist. That’s how I make my living, and spreading the misinformation that I’m now employed full-time by one particular client could stop other clients from approaching me and hurt my business. So, please do not spread that rumor. If I ever become a full-time employee anywhere again, I will announce that myself. Thanks. UPDATE: After investigating reports about statements made by representatives of this new TSR, I have determined that I can no longer do business with them in good conscience. I've returned their downpayment on the next piece of art I was scheduled to do for them. And yeah, I could sure use some new commissions to make up for this big hit on my cashflow"

Jim Ward, an original TSR alumnus and who wrote Giantlands, TSR3's flagship product -- "At the present time I know little or nothing about the relaunch of TSR. Right now I don't see how anyone could pick up where the old company left off. Yes it's a name with some logos, that is all I know."

Luke Gygax -- "FYI- I am not involved with any TSR company nor is Gary Con nor anyone else in my family outside of Ernie. Full stop. That is all ... I have reasons for distancing myself. The way TSR treats people online in their public exchanges is rude. The museum is a for profit business and was asking for donations. Using names of people to promote without their knowledge. Going out of the way to talk gender/woke stuff ... Also basically jacking the TSR logo from Jayson Elliot. The bombastic press releases and claims to old IP. Making a quick nostalgia money grab based on my fathers name and not much else. So I’m making it clear I don’t like this style and I have ZERO to do with TSR"

TSR3 responds to Luke Gygax​

Tim Kask, an original TSR alumnus who worked at the company until 1980, spoke at length on this topic in a YouTube video (below). I've transcribed some bits, but he says a whole load more (ellipses represent sections I have not included, for reasons of brevity), so check out the video for the whole thing.

"There has been bandied about in social media over the last several days several claims about what's going on in Lake Geneva right now. Ernie Gygax made a most egregious mistake in an interview he did on a podcast. He basically waved his bare ass in front of everybody that's concerned about pronouns, and woke, and all that right now in the industry and thumbed his nose at them. The transcript of his podcasts are there for everyone to read. That they were men, and they didn't give a sh*t, and la la la.

But right there they alienated three quarters of the gaming industry. Probably more than that, I don't believe that there's a quarter of the gaming industry that still are the neanderthals that he would make us out to be.

That's another thing. This whole thing has brought the OSR (the old school revival) into serious disrepute. Now there are some little Karens going on some of the social media and painting with the same brush all of us that were there back then based on the stupid ass sh*t that Ernie just said. No. We weren't all like that. And we aren't all like that now. He's a troll, a troglodyte, a neanderthal, if he really means that. It's a foolish person that doesn't wet his finger once in a while and feel the wind shift.

Now there've been claims in a couple of posts, one of which is by Ernie, about how the stalwarts, the old TSR are flocking to the banner. Bullsh*t....

... There is no one of the creative side of TSR from the early days involved with the Dungeon Hobby Shop Museum. No one. Not one creative person. No matter who might be claiming what, they simply do not have the credentials. Being named DiMaggio does not mean you can hit a lot of home runs. Or that you even hit any home runs ....

... Just because you say you're TSR doesn't mean you are."

​

 

[mythago]

Actually, one could argue that Matriarchy and Patriarchy have been changing back and forth forever over ancient times, though it could have been drawn from more modern sources. That Gary was also a well versed Biblical student and well read elsewise, there is no saying. However, there were quite a lot of evil women in myth and legend just as there were lots of evil men in myth and legend, so I don't find those placements significant to anything but the human condition when studying such texts.

One could argue that, but one would look pretty silly doing so. Similarly, that there have been individual evil women in myth and legend (and for that matter in history) is a bit beside the point. This isn't about mapping Elizabeth Bathory or Ishtar onto some baddie elves; it's the trope of a mythic topsy-turvy place where - unlike the natural order of things in normal society! women are in charge, and they are pretty hostile and awful to men. Certainly that is far from a modern trope per se, but the particular version the drow have sure is. (I'm fairly sure it was Joanna Russ who described this type of plot as 'the captive will be my consort for tonight, said Queen Zar coldly'.)

 

[billd91]

Oof. I've met many people who look very much like the people in that drow cover (apart from the hair color); black women aren't some monolith in body type and facial features.

I'm not saying it is - but drawing a black woman is more than just a skin tone. Looking at just a skin tone to equate pictures of drow and black women is probably a bad idea.

 

[Dessert Nomad]

What made it "funny", I realized years later, was that it completely dehumanized Black people. A joke I told several times in a (almost entirely white) school, and didn't get the implications of, didn't see how awful it was. Years later I flashed back to that day and realized- Holy Smokes, that was racist AF!

I remember telling Polack jokes for a couple of years as a kit without even realizing that was a term for a particular race/nationality.

Jokes about trans people were really bad looking back on it - even back in the 80s, people would get the joke "How does every racist joke start" "OK, how?" exaggerated look over each shoulder (that is, people were generally aware enough to double-check that there were none of race X around before telling a joke about X), but no one did that even for the nastiest trans jokes. And those jokes were almost always the worst sort bigoted jokes - there isn't even an actual joke in there, just 'people like this exist'. I didn't even really think of trans people as actual people you might encounter until I was in my late 20s, and proliferated a lot of that bigotry without even consciously realizing it was directed against actual people.

I think that's what people are generally getting at when they say 'it was a different time' and why WotC's disclaimer is like it is. I don't think anyone really thinks that now I'm a terrible person because as a teenager in the 80s I used trans people as the punchline of jokes, since I've learned and moved on. But "I uncritically parroted some bad ideas decades ago" really different from keeping up the same behavior now, when the knowledge of how it's bad and who it's hurting is clear and available, the way that Ernie is.

Weird Al is a pretty good egg, that way.

Weird Al has been making fun of musicians, including a lot of Black performers for decades, and doesn't shy away from imitating their look. Yet he's never been involved in a serious 'this is racist' controversy the entire time, and his worst 'since' are things like using the word 'spastic' in a song (which he apologized for when called out). "He never wore blackface," while true, would be damning with faint praise, but I think him managing to be funny at the expense of rich Black guys, including copying their appearance, without doing anything racist is way beyond that.

 

[Zardnaar]

Was he with the company when TSR produced Drums on Fire Mountain? Because there's no squinting or stretching required to see that orcs are explicitly coded as either Black people or Pacific Islanders.

EDIT: He left the company in 1996, 12 years after Drums on Fire Mountain was released.

They depict Polynesians. I live in Polynesia and these days it's regarded as offensive.

Back then it almost passed as representation.

Clarification in 1997 I bought the Complete Book of Humanoi

I'm more interested in Kush, before the Romans destroyed it. So there

How about Makuria?

Kush is quite interesting. More pyramids there than in Egypt.

 

[Zardnaar]

I remember telling Polack jokes for a couple of years as a kit without even realizing that was a term for a particular race/nationality.

Jokes about trans people were really bad looking back on it - even back in the 80s, people would get the joke "How does every racist joke start" "OK, how?" exaggerated look over each shoulder (that is, people were generally aware enough to double-check that there were none of race X around before telling a joke about X), but no one did that even for the nastiest trans jokes. And those jokes were almost always the worst sort bigoted jokes - there isn't even an actual joke in there, just 'people like this exist'. I didn't even really think of trans people as actual people you might encounter until I was in my late 20s, and proliferated a lot of that bigotry without even consciously realizing it was directed against actual people.

I think that's what people are generally getting at when they say 'it was a different time' and why WotC's disclaimer is like it is. I don't think anyone really thinks that now I'm a terrible person because as a teenager in the 80s I used trans people as the punchline of jokes, since I've learned and moved on. But "I uncritically parroted some bad ideas decades ago" really different from keeping up the same behavior now, when the knowledge of how it's bad and who it's hurting is clear and available, the way that Ernie is.


Weird Al has been making fun of musicians, including a lot of Black performers for decades, and doesn't shy away from imitating their look. Yet he's never been involved in a serious 'this is racist' controversy the entire time, and his worst 'since' are things like using the word 'spastic' in a song (which he apologized for when called out). "He never wore blackface," while true, would be damning with faint praise, but I think him managing to be funny at the expense of rich Black guys, including copying their appearance, without doing anything racist is way beyond that.

Instead of Pollack jokes we had and Englishman an Irishman and a Scotsman type jokes. The Irishman was usually the butt of the joke.

Probably some sort of holdover from Protestant vs Catholic as well. Trans jokes weren't very common gay ones were.

Comedians these days say it's ok to punch up instead of down which usually translated to joked about the USA, UK maybe Europe (read French/German).

As it turned out pre internet a lot of the joked were the same just substitute whoever your mocking with local target of the joke.

I didn't get Pollack jokes on TV because I didn't know what one was and still didn't get them later because I didn't know the stereotypes of Poles in America.

 

[Umbran]

To be honest, they don't really look much like real Black women at all. The only comparable feature is the realistic skin tone - their other features are more in line with white models.

Mod Note:
All right folks. Enough. There have been tons of threads about drow and orcs. Everyone is dug in on their opinions. Do not relitigate that here, again.

 

[billd91]

Weird Al has been making fun of musicians, including a lot of Black performers for decades, and doesn't shy away from imitating their look. Yet he's never been involved in a serious 'this is racist' controversy the entire time, and his worst 'since' are things like using the word 'spastic' in a song (which he apologized for when called out). "He never wore blackface," while true, would be damning with faint praise, but I think him managing to be funny at the expense of rich Black guys, including copying their appearance, without doing anything racist is way beyond that.

Weird Al also always seeks permission so that the artist is in on the joke. The one time I know of that he wasn't given permission by the artist but went ahead was due to a communication snafu. Fortunately, Coolio mellowed on the idea and apologized for the misunderstanding to Al. He's a pretty respectful and thoughtful guy, that Weird Al.

 

[Faolyn]

They are the Groo of the D&D world.

"Do not try to find logic in that which does not use logic. Or their brain for that matter."
"Everywhere Groo goes, disaster is sure to follow."

What do you mean, slow of mind?

 

[Umbran]

Weird Al has been making fun of musicians, including a lot of Black performers for decades, and doesn't shy away from imitating their look. Yet he's never been involved in a serious 'this is racist' controversy the entire time, and his worst 'since' are things like using the word 'spastic' in a song (which he apologized for when called out). "He never wore blackface," while true, would be damning with faint praise, but I think him managing to be funny at the expense of rich Black guys, including copying their appearance, without doing anything racist is way beyond that.

Yep. Weird Al ASKS before he records any parody. And his work is parodying the song, but not generally making fun of the artist.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Meanwhile, over on Facebook...

Wil Wheaton, major geek icon, caught wind of this, and about two hours ago posted some... choice words I cannot repeat here. He is, um... not happy... with TSR3. At all.

Well, considering the Wheaton Rule, color me unsurprised.

I wonder how some of the other celebrity gamers are handling this. I have no doubt some are just as ticked. But I’d imagine that Colbert, Diesel, Manganiello and the like are being advised to stay out of it (if their handlers are aware).

OTOH, Oswalt and Posehn might be gearing up some truly choice commentary.