D&D 5E Is Paladine Bahamut? Is Takhisis Tiamat? Fizban's Treasury Might Reveal The Answer!

According to WotC's James Wyatt, Fizban's Treasury of Dragons introduces a new cosmology for dragon gods, where the same beings, including Fizban, echo across various D&D campaign settings with alternate versions of themselves (presumably like Paladine/Bahamut, or Takhisis/Tiamat). Also... the various version can merge into one single form.

Takhisis is the five-headed dragon god of evil from the Dragonlance setting. Paladine is the platinum dragon god of good (and also Fizban's alter-ego).

Additionally, the book will contain psychic gem dragons, with stats for all four age categories of the five varieties (traditionally there are Amethyst, Crystal, Emerald, Sapphire, and Topaz), plus Dragonborn characters based on metallic, chromatic, and gem dragons.

D&D 5E - Check out Fizban's Alternate Cover!

WotC's James Wyatt talked to Polygon about Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, which also revealed the alternate cover, which you can only get from hobby stores. https://www.enworld.org/threads/fizbans-treasury-the-dragon-book-now-has-a-description-and-a-feat.681399/

www.enworld.org

D&D 5E - Fizban's Treasury: The Dragon Book Now Has A Description... And A Feat

Courtesy of Amazon, we now have a description for Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, the October D&D hardcover. The book introduces gem dragons, dragon-themed player options, and plenty of draconic lore! This joins September's The Wild Beyond the Witchlight, and November's Strixhaven: Curriculum of...

www.enworld.org

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Is this where we find out Dol Arrah and Paladine are the same?

Dol Arrah is already a dragon called Dularanahk. Only silly human worshippers from a backwater place called Pyrine mangled her name to Dol Arrah... It's not a stretch to have even stranger stories being claimed to be true about her. Bards can sing silly things at time...

In a setting were gods are concrete, real persons with divine power, I can see the problem of importing suddenly the god-like Dragonlance gods, but in a setting where gods don't exist, are disinterested into everyday problem, are outside the Ring of Siberys or are all meeting every Mol night on the top of the Sacred Mountain depending on who you ask, having just a new layer of stories about them is less problematic and less susceptible to destabilise your game by having players with the knowledge of a setting book build false expectations. There would be more problematic changes to integrate into Eberron than stories about potential gods, I think -- like the changes of transportation spells from 3.5 to 4 to 5e that changed the perception of "spread" of house Orien (despite being much smaller a change than importing stories about dragons).

I'm still waiting to see someone handle this kind of stuff better than Keith Baker. He always makes it clear that the world is not his, and that his opinions and takes are not canon (even if we ignore him and create a whole kanon to follow his ideas for the setting).

Because we're rationally considering that the author is... authoritative?

If I were to buy Banksy's Little Girl with Balloon (or the remnant thereof) would I suddenly become qualified to say it's an endorsement of the air travel industry? Would anyone take my word for it? Since it's the public domain, is anyone able to say that, say canonically that the Internationale is a pro-capital market song, despite the intent of the original author? I hope not... I feel KB is (contractually?) obligated to mention that his ideas on Eberron aren't WotC's (and he's doing that great).

Yep. It's just inside a bigger and harder to penetrate crystal sphere. Basically, all of Eberron are just "berks". Honestly, it's lucky for me and my group that Eberron has always been heavily pushed as a setting that you make your own, where canon doesn't matter, because I despise Planescape's takeover of all of DnD, and this might have killed my interest in Eberron if I felt inclined to take it seriously.

Even if there is something outside the ring of Siberys, it's like parallel universes to our universe IRL: "well, maybe, but it doesn't make any relevant impact on anything since the ring isn't crossable. The decision to enclose a few planes within and create a stable "world" didn't, as far as KB is concerned, implied that there was nothing OUTSIDE Siberys. I'd be miffed if they had planescape's ships landing in Sharn, but saying that "some other places could exist behind an impassable wall" doesn't upset me this much...

I have... very conflicted feelings about that conception of IP ownership, but under our current IP laws, that's not how it works at all, for better or for worse. Probably for worse.

IP laws protect an expression of an idea, not an idea itself. WotC has the right to commercially sell products, and could bar KB or anyone from using their IP in their own products, but the ideas themselves are free flowing and moral rights are distinguished from commercial rights even in US IP law -- where the former are, apparently but unsurprising, weakly protected than anywhere else. When looking for the intent of something, I am in the camp of "ask the author first, not the IP owner" [which is, I think, what anyone does instinctively when looking at, say, a painting... one asks "what did the painter wanted to represent, not "what does the museum currently owning it think about it?"]

The correct order is therefore:

1. the DM
2. Keith Baker
3. WotC
4. Anyone else
5. Anything in the Forge of War supplement.

 

[Demetrios1453]

No it is not her avatar.

I'm wondering if they'll retcon that in this book

 

[Urriak Uruk]

So dragons that we know from legends, like Ashardalon, Chronepsis, or Aasterinian, who have been presented as dragon gods in the past sometimes, we’re describing them as these Great Wyrms who have managed to extend their power and influence beyond a single world and combine the power of multiple echoes to become incredibly powerful creatures.”

I'll add, this is a fairly big retcon. Chronepsis and Aasterinian were previously consider deities of their own, Chronepsis as the god of death and undeath, and Aasterinian of humor, inventiveness, and pleasure. It seems like this change is to make Bahamut and Tiamat as the only true dragon gods, while other have ascended to the very powerful Great Wyrm status which is short of that.

Ashardalon I'm fairly certain was never a god, but I guess he's so iconic they've put him in Great Wyrm status. Dragotha better make the cut too!

 

[Parmandur]

I'll add, this is a fairly big retcon. Chronepsis and Aasterinian were previously consider deities of their own, Chronepsis as the god of death and undeath, and Aasterinian of humor, inventiveness, and pleasure. It seems like this change is to make Bahamut and Tiamat as the only true dragon gods, while other have ascended to the very powerful Great Wyrm status which is short of that.

Ashardalon I'm fairly certain was never a god, but I guess he's so iconic they've put him in Great Wyrm status. Dragotha better make the cut too!

The 3E Adventure Path (Sunless Citadel and sequels) were about

Spoiler

Ashardalon's apotheosis

as the threat behind the scenes. Though yeah, it's a retcon. It does seem they suggested that Bahumut went through a similar process, tthough, so Bahamut and Tiamat may actually be different from other Dragons in degree rather than kind.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

I'll add, this is a fairly big retcon. Chronepsis and Aasterinian were previously consider deities of their own, Chronepsis as the god of death and undeath, and Aasterinian of humor, inventiveness, and pleasure. It seems like this change is to make Bahamut and Tiamat as the only true dragon gods, while other have ascended to the very powerful Great Wyrm status which is short of that.

Ashardalon I'm fairly certain was never a god, but I guess he's so iconic they've put him in Great Wyrm status. Dragotha better make the cut too!

Maybe they are going the other direction and saying T & B are just really old dragons and not gods at all!

 

[Parmandur]

Maybe they are going the other direction and saying T & B are just really old dragons and not gods at all!

Or those are thr same thing, in the cosmic scheme.
Heavy Metal Intensifies

 

[thundershot]

This sounds great! I hope they don’t forget Peal, Opal, Diamond, and the Great Dragon (all from BECMI).

 

[Bolares]

I feel KB is (contractually?) obligated to mention that his ideas on Eberron aren't WotC's (and he's doing that great).

Nah, everything he saus and writes about design corroborates the feeling that what matters is the game table. His mentions about eberron not being his are about that. Eberron is what the people playing it say it is. Not wotc, not baker.

 

[Bolares]

The correct order is therefore:

1. the DM
2. Keith Baker
3. WotC
4. Anyone else
5. Anything in the Forge of War supplement.

Now THAT’S a good order hahaha

 

[Zeromaru X]

It does seem they suggested that Bahumut went through a similar process, tthough, so Bahamut and Tiamat may actually be different from other Dragons in degree rather than kind.

Now that you mention this, there is an old Polyhedron magazine (from 1e or 2e?) that says that some gold dragons believe Bahamut was originally a gold dragon who "evolved" into platinum dragon god through "sheer goodness".