D&D 5E Is Paladine Bahamut? Is Takhisis Tiamat? Fizban's Treasury Might Reveal The Answer!

According to WotC's James Wyatt, Fizban's Treasury of Dragons introduces a new cosmology for dragon gods, where the same beings, including Fizban, echo across various D&D campaign settings with alternate versions of themselves (presumably like Paladine/Bahamut, or Takhisis/Tiamat). Also... the various version can merge into one single form.

Takhisis is the five-headed dragon god of evil from the Dragonlance setting. Paladine is the platinum dragon god of good (and also Fizban's alter-ego).

Additionally, the book will contain psychic gem dragons, with stats for all four age categories of the five varieties (traditionally there are Amethyst, Crystal, Emerald, Sapphire, and Topaz), plus Dragonborn characters based on metallic, chromatic, and gem dragons.

D&D 5E - Check out Fizban's Alternate Cover!

WotC's James Wyatt talked to Polygon about Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, which also revealed the alternate cover, which you can only get from hobby stores. https://www.enworld.org/threads/fizbans-treasury-the-dragon-book-now-has-a-description-and-a-feat.681399/

www.enworld.org

D&D 5E - Fizban's Treasury: The Dragon Book Now Has A Description... And A Feat

Courtesy of Amazon, we now have a description for Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, the October D&D hardcover. The book introduces gem dragons, dragon-themed player options, and plenty of draconic lore! This joins September's The Wild Beyond the Witchlight, and November's Strixhaven: Curriculum of...

www.enworld.org

 

[dave2008]

Doubt all you want. But, yes, a unique dragon (that had 128 hp) that is treated as a lesser goddess (in D&DG) is the same thing as a greater goddess with 999 hp that does 1-1000 points of damage on a hit.

EDIT: This quote was actually from @Azzy here, not sure how I messed it up!

I will see if I can track them down, but IIRC it was a weird stat block. And that doesn't even get into the fact that it didn't match how the deity stats in Deities and Demigods.

 

[StarFyre]

For example, the Savage Tide adventure path featured four aspects of Demogorgon: Khala in Dungeon #145, Bagromar and Gorgant in Dungeon #149, and Tetradarian in Dungeon #150.

DDO also featured a Demon Overlord counterpart of Lolth called Spinner of Shadows.

While they are aspects they were also children of demogorgon I thought. I'll check . A lot of the research for my game came from that adventure so I keep the photocopy print out available...

Sf

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Couldn't Takhisis be a rogue aspect of Tiamat, at least? The idea of aspects and avatars of gods and demon lords and such going rogue against their progenitor and pursuing their own goals was a neat detail that showed up in 3E and 4E (possibly earlier).

For example, the Savage Tide adventure path featured four aspects of Demogorgon: Khala in Dungeon #145, Bagromar and Gorgant in Dungeon #149, and Tetradarian in Dungeon #150.

DDO also featured a Demon Overlord counterpart of Lolth called Spinner of Shadows.

Sure but that doesn’t satisfy the people who want the cosmology separated.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Sure but that doesn’t satisfy the people who want the cosmology separated.

I kind of don’t care if they want that, it’s already not separated and has been that way for a while.
The writer for this book outright said that Fizban’s true form is Paladine aka Bahamut the Platinum Dragon.

 

[dave2008]

OK, I found the 1e Statblock for Takhisis (Dragonlance Adventures), and as I remember it is really weird. It doesn't follow the standard format for Deities and Demigods, or the MM, or any standard TSR monster or deity book. I don't know how seriously I can take this. I mean how did Raistlin, a 40 hp or so mage defeat her. Well I guess because she doesn't have any magic resistance, unlike any other god in a 1e book. This thing is just bizarre.

Yes, that is the whole stat block. If it is hard to read, this is what it says:

Takhisis
Cleric/Black Robed Wizard (40th level each)
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Movement: 18" / 48"
Armor Class: -10
Hit Points: 999
Hit Dice: 40
# of Attacks: 4
Damage/Attack: 1-1000*/1-1000*/1-1000*/1-1000*
* The damage done by this attack is 1d10 times a number from 1-100, inclusive (Takhisis gets to pick the number!). See the prior entry for Paladine fr more information on this attack.

And here is Paladine:

Paladine
Cleric/Magic User (40th level each)
Alignment: Lawful Good
Movement: 12" / 29"
Armor Class: -10
Hit Points: 999
Hit Dice: 40
# of Attacks: 5
Damage/Attack: 1-1000*
* The damage done by this attack is 1d10 times a number from 1-100, inclusive (Paladine gets to pick the number!). For example, Paladine may choose a multiplier of 20. In this case, the damage per attack is 1d10 x 20. If Paladine rolls a 6 for damage, teh result is 6x20 or 120 points of damage.

 

[Azzy]

Well the Takhisis stats you list where very different from all other deities at the time. If you look at the 1e Deities and Demigods, the max hit points of the greater gods was 400. They were definitely made in a bubble regardless if they were supposed to be a different entity or the same one.

Okay, I'll humor you. In 2e's Monster Mythology, Tiamat is still listed as a lesser goddess not a greater goddess and has different stats. You'd think, that if they were the same being, they'd get this right when they updated things. I'm sorry, you (and others) haven't shown a convincing argument that Tiamat and Takhisis are the same entity (in 1e).

"BuT thEY LOoK ThE SAme!" even though they have different names, goals, personalities, stats, diety status, etc. is not a compelling argument. In addition, the authors even stated that they weren't supposed to be the same being. It's only in mid/late 2e that they are retconned to be the same being.

 

[Azzy]

Couldn't Takhisis be a rogue aspect of Tiamat, at least? The idea of aspects and avatars of gods and demon lords and such going rogue against their progenitor and pursuing their own goals was a neat detail that showed up in 3E and 4E (possibly earlier).

In 2e and 5e, she's retconned to be the same being so this really isn't a necessary (though interesting) avenue to explore. But for the sake of argument, it would be weird that a rogue aspect or avatar would have a greater diety status than the original lesser goddess.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

In 2e and 5e, she's retconned to be the same being so this really isn't a necessary (though interesting) avenue to explore. But for the sake of argument, it would be weird that a rogue aspect or avatar would have a greater diety status than the original lesser goddess.

Oh, so maybe Tiamat is actually Takhisis' aspect instead of the other way around? Perhaps Takhisis became known on so many other worlds as Tiamat that she just adopted that as her new name.

I did just learn that one Planescape book called On Hallowed Ground counted Takhisis and Tiamat separately, with Takhisis being established as a Greater Power and Tiamat as a Lesser Power.

EDIT: I'm seeing that the oldest reference to a five-headed female dragon was simply titled "the Chromatic Dragon". So maybe Tiamat and Takhisis are both just aspects of the Chromatic Dragon?

 

[dave2008]

Okay, I'll humor you. In 2e's Monster Mythology, Tiamat is still listed as a lesser goddess not a greater goddess and has different stats. You'd think, that if they were the same being, they'd get this right when they updated things. I'm sorry, you (and others) haven't shown a convincing argument that Tiamat and Takhisis are the same entity (in 1e).

"BuT thEY LOoK ThE SAme!" even though they have different names, goals, personalities, stats, diety status, etc. is not a compelling argument. In addition, the authors even stated that they weren't supposed to be the same being. It's only in mid/late 2e that they are retconned to be the same being.

I can't speak for Uni, but I am suggesting they are the same thing, regardless of their differences. I see, and always have seen, Tiamat and Takhisis as avatars of the same primordial dragon god. The differences are expected as the different avatars capture different aspects of her divine being. I don't care what was official in 1e, when I look at Tiamat and Takhisis I clearly see versions of the same entity. If that wasn't "official," well I just think that is silly and I prefer my D&D to more grounded in reality

PS The also had the same name as Takhisis was called TiiMut in some locations which is an obvious alternate spell of Tiamat. Also regarding diety status, there was a good Dragon article during 1e that explained that goods have different power on different worlds based on their worshipers / influence on that world. So Tiamat can be a greater god on Krynn and lesser god on Oerth.

Regarding goals, well they seem pretty similar: Takhisis wants to take over Krynn and Tiamat was take over Toril. Is there more nuance with Takhisis, sure because we have a lot more information about her.

 

[dave2008]

Okay, I'll humor you. In 2e's Monster Mythology, Tiamat is still listed as a lesser goddess not a greater goddess and has different stats.

PS In 2e they didn't provide the gods stats, only the avatars stats. And avatars can and do change.