D&D 5E Ability Score Increases (I've changed my mind.)

Rabulias

the Incomparably Shrewd and Clever
Equal means equal. 72 does not equal 74. 100% average does not equal rarely average due to small sample sizes.
"Comparable" might be a better term for describing the ruleset's equivalence of rolling vs the standard array. As an analogy, in the game, I can use an Action to Dash or to Disengage. These are clearly different functions, but to the ruleset, they are both "Actions" and are equivalent in those terms. For this discussion, it seems to that rolling and standard array (and point buy) are all forms of "ability stat generation methods" offered by the ruleset and are comparable.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
"Comparable" might be a better term for describing the ruleset's equivalence of rolling vs the standard array. As an analogy, in the game, I can use an Action to Dash or to Disengage. These are clearly different functions, but to the ruleset, they are both "Actions" and are equivalent in those terms. For this discussion, it seems to that rolling and standard array (and point buy) are all forms of "ability stat generation methods" offered by the ruleset and are comparable.
A great many characters with rolled stats will be pretty different from the array, though. I'm not sure how comparable they are.
 

Aldarc

Legend
And so we again come full circle.

Either.

A: Fantasy is inherently flawed from a perspective of biologically distinct humanoids, and all must be rendered down to an acceptable similar potential.

Funny Hats.

Or.

B: It is understood that different Fantasy biological humanoids can be faster/stronger/hardier or have otherwise 'magical' properties inherent to their type.

That's really it. Either it's acceptable (B) or it's funny hats.
Yep. That's it. Those are the options.
It always raises a red flag in my head when people present a hardlined dichotomy or limited set of either/or choices. I am already supicious whether "that's it" and if there are not a fair deal of overlapping fallacies at play here: either/or fallacy, fallacy of the excluded middle, bifurcation fallacy, etc.
 

It always raises a red flag in my head when people present a hardlined dichotomy or limited set of either/or choices. I am already supicious whether "that's it" and if there are not a fair deal of overlapping fallacies at play here: either/or fallacy, fallacy of the excluded middle, bifurcation fallacy, etc.
I think what you're doing here is a fallacy fallacy. If you think there is an issue with the logic then explain your reasoning for why that is.
 

It always raises a red flag in my head when people present a hardlined dichotomy or limited set of either/or choices. I am already supicious whether "that's it" and if there are not a fair deal of overlapping fallacies at play here: either/or fallacy, fallacy of the excluded middle, bifurcation fallacy, etc.
I think that it comes across as a choice between two specific points, whereas option B is very much a spectrum that stretches all the way to point A at one end. Floating (or removal of) ASIs simply moves where you draw the line a little way along B, while still essentially still remaining option B.
I've not actually seen that many people advocating for option A in this thread: Most of the discussion seems to have been around what point along B people like to put their line.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Yep. I messed up on the number thing. That doesn't make it unuseful, let alone a detriment. Once you know what is in the area, you can set about trying avoid it, plan for it, or find it. It's not the best ability, but it is only level 3.

Except now you can plan for it, where before you couldn't.

Why couldn't you plan for it before? The only reason you spent a spell slot was because you suspected there were dragons in the area. You could plan for Dragons to be in the area without confirmation, just based on the information that led you to use Primeval Awareness.

And how do you go about finding it? It could be six miles behind you, running away. It could be three miles in front of you, sleeping. It could be lurking 4 miles below you in inaccessible caverns. It could be a mile overhead observing you. It could be polymorphed into the horse you are riding. You have no possible way to use this information. And while it is "only 3rd level" Third level is chock full of actually useful abilities for most other classes.

Assumed. All that is assumed to be correct.

Which is why people did Math. Math to check their assumptions. Math which you don't engage in because you have a gut feeling the designers did something else.

Look, I know I haven't had time to dig into the math, and try and show it to you, but it has been all over various forums, and people don't come to these numbers by just making an assumption and twisting the data to show it. If they did, it would be swiftly debunked.

It's arbitrary because they are just picking the number out of the air. They could just as easily have assumed 60% and a 14 in the stat as the expected numbers for the CR armor classes. It's pure guesswork that the particular numbers they selected are what the game has as the baseline.

No, it isn't. It was based partially on the designers saying years ago that they wanted to have a more than 50% success rate, and 65% is comfortably between being too easy and too hard. Additionally, 16 is the number from dozens of different ways to calculate it. Your 14 is based solely on a gut feeling and the mistaken idea that pushing the scale downward was desirable to them, because you think 5e is easier than 3.5, so the numbers must be lowered.

Equal means equal. 72 does not equal 74. 100% average does not equal rarely average due to small sample sizes.

I have no idea what you are trying to say with the bolded. Again I am left assuming you just don't understand how a small sample size can warp data.

And for the second, ONCE MORE, the Standard array was altered from the true average. We know this. We've known this. Because the designers didn't want the Standard array to offer a 16, because they didn't want the +2 races to start with an 18 without rolling. They did the exact same thing when setting up the point buy. Which is why you can't buy a 16, only a 15.

Additionally, when talking about numbers less than a standard deviation apart, they are close enough to be considered equal, without needing to be identical. Heck, the true mathematical average could be 73.62487 but since you can't roll a decimal place it had to be rounded. Not being identical doesn't change anything, because I never claimed they were identical.

The game works at the group level, not the collective level. At the group level is where arrays are going to be compared to rolling, and they are not going to be equal.

The game was designed at the collective level, with hundreds of thousands expected to play it. It is impossible to accurately predict what any five people will do when given 3 options, only one of which is static and the other random and the third controlled values. They couldn't possibly design the game with your assumptions. They had to take an aggregate value and work with the averages as an assumption.

And your statement is farcical on the face of it, because rolling allows for massively powerful and massively weak characters. I've seen people roll where their modifiers were (+2, +1, +1, +0, -2, -1) and I've also seen them roll where they were (+4, +4, +3, +2, +2, +0). The entire point of rolling is the potential to get a far more powerful character than average, while risking getting a character weaker than average. But for that to be the case, an average must exist. And it does. The average doesn't suddenly disappear because no one rolled in when they rolled only four times. That's like saying that the chance of heads on a coin flip is 75% because you flipped four times and 3 of them were heads.

And you seem to be under the misapprehension that you can tell what it is that I'm saying, even when I clearly say it. I just said to you that it would take 100 years and many campaigns to see the average show up, and yet you(once again) have me saying the opposite of what I actually said.

Because that doesn't matter. Your "100's of years and many campaigns" is a red herring assuming that the average must show up at a specific table of 5 reliably to be a real factor. That isn't how probabilities work. The average of the dice doesn't care whether or not it shows up at your table, it exists despite your table. And since the designers can't predict what you will roll every single time, their best bet is to go with the average. Which we can see they clearly did.

All rules are subject to change. Literally all of them. The PHB directs the players to check with the DM to see what changes he made to the rules. Players are not entitled to the array. They aren't entitled to have any particular race or class in the game. They aren't entitled to feats. They're not entitled to lots of things that affect their characters.

They aren't entitled to Hp. They aren't entitled to AC. They aren't entitled that a positive modifier doesn't lower their roll because the DM decided that you have to roll under. The DM can decide that all monsters critically hit on a nat 1 and a nat 20, while players critically miss on a nat 20 and a nat 1.

Make sure your DM teaches you the game, because they are entitled to change literally any aspect of it regardless of the group or individual.

I think you can see why I'd prefer to play with people who are slightly more judicious in which rules they change, because "I have the right to literally change anything I want, because I am the Master of this game." isn't a healthy attitude in my opinion.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
I think what you're doing here is a fallacy fallacy. If you think there is an issue with the logic then explain your reasoning for why that is.

Pretty simple actually. On the face of it the idea that our only two options in the face of a problem of the status quo are to either throw out everything and destroy the concepts of fantasy or accept the status quo as not having a problem are too extreme and too radical. There is likely a lot of nuance, many places in the middle of the pack that we could stop before tossing aside everything and burning it all to the ground.

I don't agree that the problem with ASIs is that they are racist, though I can see the argument that they share an uncomfortable amount of DNA with ideas like Eugenics. But, when talking more broadly about racist, sexist, ableist and other -ists that are problematic in the portrayal of fantasy races, I don't think the place we are going to end up is "abandon all fantasy races". Can I tell you where we will end up of the next 100 years? No, I'm not magic or a super-genius. This is a thorny issue, people are going to be struggling with it, just like we are currently struggling with similar issues in similar media. This has some rings of issues with "Can I portray a woman as attractive without being sexist" that comes up in many forms of media. These aren't easy questions to answer, they are incredibly hard and we probably won't have a great solution in our lifetimes. But that doesn't mean the answer is to throw up our hands, and say we either keep the status quo or we allow anarchy and chaos to take over because nothing matters.
 

I don't agree that the problem with ASIs is that they are racist, though I can see the argument that they share an uncomfortable amount of DNA with ideas like Eugenics. But, when talking more broadly about racist, sexist, ableist and other -ists that are problematic in the portrayal of fantasy races, I don't think the place we are going to end up is "abandon all fantasy races".
Right. So this is B then. There is a lot of nuance in the option B, but this was specifically a response to the notion that ASIs are inherently racist. And I don't think one can logically argue that whilst simultaneously maintaining that racial traits are not. And of course one can see that there can be more problematic combination and descriptions, without thinking that the whole concept of differentiating the fantasy species is fundamentally problematic. Also one can of course think that ASIs are simply a bad game mechanic without attributing that to any social issue.
 

Um, ok, interesting logic.

I've played various editions of dnd with different groups, including a lot of new players that I introduced to the game as adults. Of the main group of people I play with currently, two started with AD&D, and generally understand and DM for 5e as well, while the other two are new players and don't really care too much about the rules. And then I play with my nephew, who is 8 years old, so I have to simplify things for him. None of these people are powergamers or care about racial vs floating asi. The old school dnd players have a lot of the standard dnd fantasy tropes ingrained, but the new players come to characters will all sorts of different ideas and expectations, which is interesting to see. Given the rise in popularity of the game, I think the new players' relative lack of investment in dnd tropes (and hence, to some degree, in racial asi) is probably more illustrative of the broader experience than my friends who have been playing since 1e or 2e.
That is more than fair, and true. It is neat to see the expectations they come with.

But our discussion is really an analysis of the rules, specifically ASI. And while I admit, your players that don't know the rules very well do add to this, they can only add so much. Because in the end, the game has to house rules, and those rules have to have a DM that enjoys and believes in them.
 

but then some people tried to explain that Floating ASIs are mandatory for fun..
No one tried to explain that.

People on both sides tried to explain what is gained, lost, or changed based on floating ASIs.

Sometimes the problem is perspective. Some people can't see the things that are lost. Some can't see gain.

Other times the problem is value. Some people value the gain much more than the loss, or vice-a-versa.

No one insisted there was one way for mandatory fun.
 

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