D&D and the rising pandemic

[Cadence]

Yep.

Folks do need to consider the consequences of that too, though. If someone is unvaccinated, and can't afford the extra charge, they will lose their insurance. If they need major health services of any kind (not just for covid) then they are going to get hit with a massive bill... and become among those people who lose their homes and all due to medical bankruptcy.

Someone doesn't get vaccinated - are you ready to make them, and their family, their kids and grandma, who have no strong part in the decisions - homeless and jobless for that? Because it'll happen.

There are no simple answers when people are dumb en masse.

I think here the smoking penalty in SC is just $25 per month as an insurance surcharge. Delta is $200/month for not having the COVID shot.

I wonder what the overlap is between those against universal health care and those against getting vaccinated is. (Not enough to want a response and derail the thread into politics though). Even so I'm not saying they should get that harsh of a punishment even if they're asking for it.

 

[Ryujin]

What I meant was- contrary to the desires I’ve seen around the Internet- they’re not altering triage procedures to deprioritize the willfully unvaccinated. IOW, even though some would like to see it happen, they’re not “punishing” the antivaxxers by putting them at the end of the line.

Which is consistent with general medical ethics practices. Yes, antivaxxers are materially contributing to their own problems via their choices, but so are a lot of people who wind up seeking health care services.

For example: I overeat, causing me issues with weight, joint pain and hypertension. In addition, I have mild food allergies, but I don’t avoid those foods in my diet. I’m voluntarily contributing to conditions that could negatively affect my health.

So are people who drink too much, do drugs, practice parkour, skateboard, drive without seatbelts, etc.

I find that rather interesting, given the number of cases in which I have heard of motorcyclists being given less than stellar treatment, in hospital ERs, because they choose a "dangerous" passtime. A friend, who was both an ER doctor and a motorcycle racer, at the time, documented how his own hospital was de prioritizing motorcyclists who were brought into the hospital, along with the various "murdercycle" and "donorcycle" jokes made by staff. I haven't seen any actual scholarly studies on such things, but it would be interesting to see a statistical analysis on whether Covid patients who are not vaccinated do actually receive a different level of treatment, medical ethics notwithstanding.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

There are certain places where there are punishments on the insurance end. Our state health insurance plan charges more for smokers, for example (they might have an out if they actively participate in a smoking cessation program). The key there is probably hitting a tipping point where the majority are against the behavior though.

Exactly. I mentioned something like that before.

And insurance companies can do that because it’s not unethi in their field- they’re not healthcare providers, they’re financial institutions.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I find that rather interesting, given the number of cases in which I have heard of motorcyclists being given less than stellar treatment, in hospital ERs, because they choose a "dangerous" passtime. A friend, who was both an ER doctor and a motorcycle racer, at the time, documented how his own hospital was de prioritizing motorcyclists who were brought into the hospital, along with the various "murdercycle" and "donorcycle" jokes made by staff. I haven't seen any actual scholarly studies on such things, but it would be interesting to see a statistical analysis on whether Covid patients who are not vaccinated do actually receive a different level of treatment, medical ethics notwithstanding.

There’s the old saw about calling them “organ donors” as well.

Thing is, there’s lots of stories about that, but no clear evidence that it actually happens. I suspect a lot of it is tall/cautionary tales that circulate in every ER in the world.

 

[Cadence]

I find that rather interesting, given the number of cases in which I have heard of motorcyclists being given less than stellar treatment, in hospital ERs, because they choose a "dangerous" passtime. A friend, who was both an ER doctor and a motorcycle racer, at the time, documented how his own hospital was de prioritizing motorcyclists who were brought into the hospital, along with the various "murdercycle" and "donorcycle" jokes made by staff. I haven't seen any actual scholarly studies on such things, but it would be interesting to see a statistical analysis on whether Covid patients who are not vaccinated do actually receive a different level of treatment, medical ethics notwithstanding.

I can't imagine the frustration of spending much of one's time helping folks who are sick/injured/whatnot because of self inflicted things or doing things that were more dangerous or having something that one would be completely blamed for in uncharitable moments - drunk driver in an accident, obese person with a heart attack, self administered drug overdose, unvaxed person with covid, child shot with unsecured gun, hurt while texting while driving, thrown from car without seatbelt, helmet less bicycler injury, someone elderly fell of their roof - even if the fault might not be the person doing it or there were quite possibly extenuating circumstances the health care worker didn't know about. Especially if a lot of your other cases seem completely unfair like the person hit by the drunk driver, or the infant not buckled in by their parents, or someone shot in a robbery, or the juvenile cancer patient...

They of course are supposed to just help everyone equally with no reactions. Sometimes I'm glad they just don't all quit. I wonder what percent would get pulled if we had a device to sense lesser performance due to blaming the patient (as opposed to things like exhaustion). And I wonder if the difference in care is enough to make programs to help healthcare workers overcome those judgements a thing that should happen? (Is it something that could be part of programs to reduce errors?).

 

[Thomas Shey]

Though if it gets bad enough to get into actual triage, there's probably going to be some de-facto bias against the unvaccinated simply because the numbers tell you they're less likely to recover than those that are, though it may not be presented that way (it'll be cloaked in prognosis values and such, but its still going to lean against the unvaccinated because of the realities). I'm not sure to what degree its gotten down to full blown triage yet, though.

 

[Hussar]

Terrifying thought.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Triage, when traced back to its original meaning, is kind of a terrifying term.

 

[Ryujin]

There’s the old saw about calling them “organ donors” as well.

Thing is, there’s lots of stories about that, but no clear evidence that it actually happens. I suspect a lot of it is tall/cautionary tales that circulate in every ER in the world.

The ER in question was the closest urgent care facility to a race track.

 

[Umbran]

There’s the old saw about calling them “organ donors” as well.

Especially in New Hampshire, where helmets are optional.