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Looks like Spelljammer and/or Planescape is back on the menu!

 

[Chaosmancer]

It is 1/2 Caster with two Short Rests, actually, and any Monk who isn't getting two short rests is being...shortchanged...as it stands. Same as any Warlock.

Ah, my mistake, I was doing SR * 17 not (SR+1) * 17

The point still stands though that nearly every single monk ability costs Ki. Take the Ranger or the Paladin, actual 1/2 casters. Does Lay on Hands take a spell slot? Aura of Courage? Channel Divinity? Name a single Paladin ability other than Divine Smite that costs them a spell slot to use, instead of some other resource.

The 4e Monk costs "spell slots" for nearly every single ability they have. Compare to the Open Hand Monk, whose Capstone is the only subclass ability that costs Ki, and that is an INSTANT DEATH or 10d10 damage move that costs 3 ki. Compared to the 4e monk being able to spend double that for Cone of Cold, a spell that has been being cast by actual casters for 8 levels? The costs are exorbitant for the 4e monk,

 

[Parmandur]

Ah, my mistake, I was doing SR * 17 not (SR+1) * 17

The point still stands though that nearly every single monk ability costs Ki. Take the Ranger or the Paladin, actual 1/2 casters. Does Lay on Hands take a spell slot? Aura of Courage? Channel Divinity? Name a single Paladin ability other than Divine Smite that costs them a spell slot to use, instead of some other resource.

The 4e Monk costs "spell slots" for nearly every single ability they have. Compare to the Open Hand Monk, whose Capstone is the only subclass ability that costs Ki, and that is an INSTANT DEATH or 10d10 damage move that costs 3 ki. Compared to the 4e monk being able to spend double that for Cone of Cold, a spell that has been being cast by actual casters for 8 levels? The costs are exorbitant for the 4e monk,

I agree on the point of how it feels in theorycraft, but it plays perfectly well in practice.

 

[Mort]

I agree on the point of how it feels in theorycraft, but it plays perfectly well in practice.

I've seen more than enough people complain about the 4E monk, in actual play, to doubt that claim!

Have seen much more satisfaction with other monk classes over the 4E monk.

 

[Parmandur]

I've seen more than enough people complain about the 4E monk, in actual play, to doubt that claim!

Have seen much more satisfaction with other monk classes over the 4E monk.

I'm not denying thst it has frustrated people: the design, however, isn't in the math, it's in the design intention not matching player needs. A much more subtle design failure, can't solve that with a spreadsheet tool.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I agree on the point of how it feels in theorycraft, but it plays perfectly well in practice.

There are only two 4e monks I ever saw in play that weren't terrible.

One was heavily homebrewed and was still weaker than the majority of the rest of the party, though a reaction ability to get resistance to all damage did make them a bit tanky.

The other was used in a one-shot and never used a single 4e monk ability the entire game.

This isn't a point of "it's actually fine, people just don't play it right". It is actually not working in a way that makes it competitive with other monk subclasses.

 

[Parmandur]

There are only two 4e monks I ever saw in play that weren't terrible.

One was heavily homebrewed and was still weaker than the majority of the rest of the party, though a reaction ability to get resistance to all damage did make them a bit tanky.

The other was used in a one-shot and never used a single 4e monk ability the entire game.

This isn't a point of "it's actually fine, people just don't play it right". It is actually not working in a way that makes it competitive with other monk subclasses.

It kind of is, though failing to anticipate player needs is really as much of a design failure just as power imbalance.

 

[Mort]

I'm not denying thst it has frustrated people: the design, however, isn't in the math, it's in the design intention not matching player needs. A much more subtle design failure, can't solve that with a spreadsheet tool.

The design failure is absolutely in the math! It's from both the subclass and the main class drawing from the same pool (Ki) while also having the subclass abilities be completely unworthy of the cost.

Compare to the shadow monk that also does this but at a much better price AND also has great abilities that cost nothing. Or the open hand monk who's abilities go in tandem with spending for the main class (until it's capstone which is a bargain for 3 Ki as opposed to the 17th level 4e capstones which cost 5 Ki and are both hugely underpowered for the level you get them ).

 

[Parmandur]

The design failure is absolutely in the math! It's from both the subclass and the main class drawing from the same pool (Ki) while also having the subclass abilities be completely unworthy of the cost.

Compare to the shadow monk that also does this but at a much better price AND also has great abilities that cost nothing. Or the open hand monk who's abilities go in tandem with spending for the main class (until it's capstone which is a bargain for 3 Ki).

The Ki values are very much correct, it is an exact match on a Spell Slot to Ki point buy rate of exchange. They do push out other Monk Ki abilities, but as a full fighting class getting those spells on a short rest basis...that is worth something, and the math is right. If the playstyle matches the design, it works fine. The problem is that unlike most other options in the game other than the Beastmaster, the intended playstyle is mismatched with player desires.

 

[Mecheon]

It kind of is, though failing to anticipate player needs is really as much of a design failure just as power imbalance.

Honestly, given how long 5E's playtests went, I'd call it a failure. 5E went through a huge playtest phase, and 4E and Beastmaster were the only two that really stood out as having these issues

 

[Mort]

The Ki values are very much correct, it is an exact match on a Spell Slot to Ki point buy rate of exchange. They do push out other Monk Ki abilities, but as a full fighting class getting those spells on a short rest basis...that is worth something, and the math is right.

No, because Other 1/3rd casters don't cannibalize their spell slots for subpar return! The result is a monk that can't "monk" AND can't really cast - it's quite frustrating. That's the key problem - the double draw on a single resource for subpar return.

If the playstyle matches the design, it works fine. The problem is that unlike most other options in the game other than the Beastmaster, the intended playstyle is mismatched with player desires.

What is the "intended" playstyle that will make the 4e monk play ok? if you've already posted it, sorry it's a long thread - please direct me to that post.