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Looks like Spelljammer and/or Planescape is back on the menu!

 

[Maxperson]

It should be noted that entry and exit is difficult only for those who lack keys. However, since the Planescape Campaign Setting boxed set makes note that Sigil's biggest money maker is tourism, it's not quite as hard as you might think.

There are relatively few known portals and keys, though. The vast majority of the cities doors are unknown and temporary. It's certainly not feasible to use the city as a multiversal highway for travel and trade. Outside of the few known permanent portals, the vast majority of which go to outer planes, you'd have to get very lucky to find one getting you anywhere remotely close to where you want to go.

(Also, it's easy to leave Sigil--jump off one of the roofs into the nothingness outside the torus; it will send you to a random plane. Now, that's very likely to be a death sentence to just about anyone who tries, but it's still possible.)

Sure, but that's not his argument. He's trying(and failing badly) to argue that Sigil has doorways to or near wherever in the multiverse you want to go and it's a cinch to just get to Sigil from wherever and go wherever.

 

[Faolyn]

There are relatively few known portals and keys, though. The vast majority of the cities doors are unknown and temporary. It's certainly not feasible to use the city as a multiversal highway for travel and trade. Outside of the few known permanent portals, the vast majority of which go to outer planes, you'd have to get very lucky to find one getting you anywhere remotely close to where you want to go.

Well, the boxed set uses the term "thousand pathways" (in a poetic sense of the word thousand), and In The Cage: A Guide to Sigil says that the city is "lousy with portals". They definitely give the impression that there are a lot of portals, and that the people who use them aren't necessarily all that choosy about where they open up to. And there are people who record what portal goes where and what key it requires (because of course there's spells that determine just that) with varying degrees of accuracy and truthfulness. Also, don't forget that in addition to permanent and temporary portals, there's shifting portals, where one end is permanent and the other end moves around.

However, what's important is that the books themselves describe Sigil as a hub for travel and trade. There are enough permanent and shifting portals to allow for that. The books note that only the DM is capable of making portals and should use them both liberally and carefully as plot devices, and warns the DM against making a key either too common or too rare, because both can wreck adventures--and the books also mention that there are shops, plural, in Sigil that do sell nothing but gate keys, which means there are more than enough portals to support that type of business. And all of this together means that there are exactly as many available portals as the DM feels is needed for Sigil to remain a hub of trade, travel, and tourism, unless the DM wants all the portals to go away or act weirdly for plot reasons.

Planescape is very meta at times.

Also, canonically in-game, there are plenty of merchants and middlemen who go forth and buy stuff to sell in Sigil (even though one of those merchants apparently has gotten sucked into Ravenloft at some point between the publication of Uncaged: Faces of Sigil and the publication of VRGtR, possibly for the heinously evil crime of writing his entry in Uncaged in an illegible script font). Nobody is expecting Bob the farmer to actually travel to Sigil to sell his wares.

 

[Hatmatter]

I guess I don't understand why we should go forward under the banner the places aren't logical. That seems to play into an assumption that people are somehow different in Sigil than anywhere else.

But honestly, the more people talk and explain, the more it seems like my initial point that started people arguing with me... was 100% correct. Spelljamming should focus more on stuff out in space. Dead gods, asteroids, wrecked hulls, ect ect. Space Mining (as a general term) as the main driver of people going out and doing things. Then Sigil can focus more on connecting places and the interactions between those places and those people via the portals.

Honestly, it sounds like not only was I right about that being a solid way forward... but that those were even the primary and original purposes of those settings.

I agree with this. Spelljammer is for D&D space adventures and Planescape is for multi-planar travel. In the Fall 2018 DragonTalk interview with Jeremy Crawford about the then-forthcoming Eberron: Rising From the Last War book, Jeremy Crawford discusses how all of the known worlds (Material Plane worlds) of the D&D multiverse are part of the same Material Plane. So, in Spelljammer, if one travels between crystal spheres to other worlds, that is not considered traveling from one-plane-to-another.

Of course, many of us like to mix our toys together when we play with them, so there is always crossover potential, but that would be left for individual groups and their respective temperaments and interests.

 

[Chaosmancer]

View attachment 145323

So, since it is so hard to leave Sigil, you can explain this right? From the Wiki on the Society of Sensation:

"Their desires for experiences lead them far and wide, from the Outer Planes to the Prime Material to the Inner Planes and beyond. However, the Gilded Hall of Arborea holds the largest congregation of Sensates outside of Sigil."

"If the Sensate doesn’t think the initiate’s ready, he’ll tell the sod to go out and play a bit more in the multiverse, then return to the Festhall and try again. "

If it is so hard to leave Sigil, or to return to Sigil, why is the Society that tells people to leave Sigil and return considered one of the easiest to get into? When to be a Mercykiller you just have to be Lawful, not have a criminal past, and swear to abide by the Eight Tenants of Justice

Sure, it SAYS that it is hard to enter or leave Sigil, but then it SHOWS people doing that exact thing all the time to explore the various planes. That was the point of the setting, to explore the planes. Not to lock you in Sigil with no way out.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Well, the boxed set uses the term "thousand pathways" (in a poetic sense of the word thousand), and In The Cage: A Guide to Sigil says that the city is "lousy with portals". They definitely give the impression that there are a lot of portals, and that the people who use them aren't necessarily all that choosy about where they open up to. And there are people who record what portal goes where and what key it requires (because of course there's spells that determine just that) with varying degrees of accuracy and truthfulness. Also, don't forget that in addition to permanent and temporary portals, there's shifting portals, where one end is permanent and the other end moves around.

However, what's important is that the books themselves describe Sigil as a hub for travel and trade. There are enough permanent and shifting portals to allow for that. The books note that only the DM is capable of making portals and should use them both liberally and carefully as plot devices, and warns the DM against making a key either too common or too rare, because both can wreck adventures--and the books also mention that there are shops, plural, in Sigil that do sell nothing but gate keys, which means there are more than enough portals to support that type of business. And all of this together means that there are exactly as many available portals as the DM feels is needed for Sigil to remain a hub of trade, travel, and tourism, unless the DM wants all the portals to go away or act weirdly for plot reasons.

Planescape is very meta at times.

Also, canonically in-game, there are plenty of merchants and middlemen who go forth and buy stuff to sell in Sigil (even though one of those merchants apparently has gotten sucked into Ravenloft at some point between the publication of Uncaged: Faces of Sigil and the publication of VRGtR, possibly for the heinously evil crime of writing his entry in Uncaged in an illegible script font). Nobody is expecting Bob the farmer to actually travel to Sigil to sell his wares.

EXACTLY!

 

[Hatmatter]

I think there are two ways to make the destinations better. The first actually ties into the thing everyone seems to be for. Make the Phlogiston the Astral sea. That makes it a lot easier to go to things floating in "space", because with the environment being less hostile, you don't mind staying "on the seas".

I won't comment on your other ideas, which are fine, Chaosmancer, but this replace-the-Phlogiston-with-the-Astral-Sea is a bit of a solution in search of a problem from my perspective. The "on the seas" experience is what occurs in wildspace in Spelljammer. The Phlogiston was designed to be dangerous and funnel characters into wildspace where most adventures take place. That being said, events can transpire in the Phlogiston, but it's an unusual, strange space with altered physics.

Yet, it is not a place of thought like how the Astral Plane is described. It is not a transitive plane to the Outer Realms, like the Astral Plane.

For the record, since some people are getting the impression that most people here are for replacing the Phlogiston with the Astral Plane, I would be against it. I said that about thirty pages ago, but this thread is getting long enough that there is a need for repeating some claims. The Phlogiston works just fine as it is. I am for keeping it as is.

 

[SkidAce]

For the record, since some people are getting the impression that most people here are for replacing the Phlogiston with the Astral Plane, I would be against it. I said that about thirty pages ago, but this thread is getting long enough that there is a need for repeating some claims. The Phlogiston works just fine as it is. I am for keeping it as is.

I use the Astral as hyperspace, so its not such a long (light years journey) from world/plane to world/plane.

We replaced phologiston with the Astral years ago, and I would vote for WotC to do the same, not only because we like it that way, but it simplfies the multiverse. (too many tranversal planes imo).

 

[Micah Sweet]

I use the Astral as hyperspace, so its not such a long (light years journey) from world/plane to world/plane.

We replaced phologiston with the Astral years ago, and I would vote for WotC to do the same, not only because we like it that way, but it simplfies the multiverse. (too many tranversal planes imo).

Why this constant push to simplify everything? Players generally dont pay attention to worldbuilding anyway, and DMs tend to be invested enough to accept some complexity. Any DM can always take stuff out if they want for their own games, but presenting the material pre-simplified cuts a lot of flavor.

 

[Maxperson]

Well, the boxed set uses the term "thousand pathways" (in a poetic sense of the word thousand), and In The Cage: A Guide to Sigil says that the city is "lousy with portals". They definitely give the impression that there are a lot of portals, and that the people who use them aren't necessarily all that choosy about where they open up to. And there are people who record what portal goes where and what key it requires (because of course there's spells that determine just that) with varying degrees of accuracy and truthfulness. Also, don't forget that in addition to permanent and temporary portals, there's shifting portals, where one end is permanent and the other end moves around.

However, what's important is that the books themselves describe Sigil as a hub for travel and trade. There are enough permanent and shifting portals to allow for that. The books note that only the DM is capable of making portals and should use them both liberally and carefully as plot devices, and warns the DM against making a key either too common or too rare, because both can wreck adventures--and the books also mention that there are shops, plural, in Sigil that do sell nothing but gate keys, which means there are more than enough portals to support that type of business. And all of this together means that there are exactly as many available portals as the DM feels is needed for Sigil to remain a hub of trade, travel, and tourism, unless the DM wants all the portals to go away or act weirdly for plot reasons.

Planescape is very meta at times.

Also, canonically in-game, there are plenty of merchants and middlemen who go forth and buy stuff to sell in Sigil (even though one of those merchants apparently has gotten sucked into Ravenloft at some point between the publication of Uncaged: Faces of Sigil and the publication of VRGtR, possibly for the heinously evil crime of writing his entry in Uncaged in an illegible script font). Nobody is expecting Bob the farmer to actually travel to Sigil to sell his wares.

The permanent portals are very few in number and not to more than a miniscule fraction of the prime planes, like @Chaosmancer is incorrectly claiming. The rest pop around and change triggers, so are too unreliable to use. While there is some very limited trade, there simply are not enough usable portals to allow Sigil to be some sort of multiversal highway. It's just not that at all.

The city is "lousy" with temporary and almost entirely unusable portals. People vanish because they accidentally trigger one, but even if they live and make it back, the portal isn't going to be around long enough to use for trade or travel. And yes, for PCs and adventures the portals will be easier to find and use, but only to get to that adventure, not to just pop around the planes sightseeing.

However you slice it, Sigil doesn't work like @Chaosmancer wants it to. Not unless he homebrews in a change to how portals work there.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Why this constant push to simplify everything? Players generally dont pay attention to worldbuilding anyway, and DMs tend to be invested enough to accept some complexity. Any DM can always take stuff out if they want for their own games, but presenting the material pre-simplified cuts a lot of flavor.

I'd agree if the complexity was less repetitive and more interesting... but the Astral has always filled me with more wonder than Phlogiston has.