D&D General Railroads, Illusionism, and Participationism

[Campbell]

When it comes to role playing games I pretty much value fair challenges and experiencing what my character experiences on an emotional level.

I think it should be pretty damn obvious why someone who values skilled play would care about the integrity of those wins and losses. That victory should be the result of fair situations where the rules are applied fairly. Same for losses.

When it comes to character focused play you often have to go to a pretty damn vulnerable place. If you are there emotionally and the people you are playing with have a detached view of the situation that gives them immense social power over you. It just does not feel very safe to me. I just can't go to where I want to go emotionally if I cannot trust the people I am playing with to not use that passion to achieve their story ends. I have similar feelings about acting with more performative actors. If they are not going to be vulnerable with me I cannot be vulnerable with them.

Even with more story oriented play I cannot imagine wanting to play with people who aren't there to enjoy your creativity. Like who wants to tell a story that other people aren't into? Who wants to go all in on an intricate plot while Jonathan is trying to deal with pathos over in the corner? That seems utterly bizarre to me.

 

[Campbell]

I don't think this is best practice in a trad game either, even with a module. When you play CoC, do you experience the game as being told a story by the GM?

Absolutely. 100%. That's what I'm there for if we're playing Call of Cthulhu. I'm not going to go deep into to my gamer brain or that character place. I'm going to try to unravel the mystery, enjoy the setting, and search for that plot with vigor. Also engage in light characterization.

 

[Malmuria]

Absolutely. 100%. That's what I'm there for if we're playing Call of Cthulhu. I'm not going to go deep into to my gamer brain or that character place. I'm going to try to unravel the mystery, enjoy the setting, and search for that plot.

But surely there is still a collaborative aspect, right? The specifics of who your characters are and how they go insane matter? The starter set does include this choose-your-own-adventure style teaching module to run to learn how to play the game. But that's interesting not only in suggesting all the ways that the game is "GM tells story," but also all the things a real game adds to a choose your own adventure set up to make it more collaborative. I'm not saying the game is anything but trad and prep-heavy and very linear, but that is not the same as reading or listening to a story unless run very very poorly.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I think you're pretty tolerant. Of course there's no need to act in an undignified fashion! But what you described sounded pretty frustrating.

Had our weekly 5e game last night. Let me run this new one by you; it irked me, but I’m curious if others will agree with my reason.

We were heading to the fort to rally the troops against a threat we’d uncovered, only to fond the fort had been taken over by hostile fey creatures. We infiltrated the fort and took out some of the fey, and we freed a couple of the officers. They told us where to find the leader of the occupying fey. They described her as a pale skinned woman with dark hair who could beguile a man simply by looking at him.

We head to the part ofthe fort where this leader’s believed to be, and we run into some of the elite fey and we manage to defeat them. We press on through a door and into a courtyard, and there she is: the dark haired woman. There are dozens of ravens perched in the trees. She looks over at us as we enter and smiles.

The GM calls for Wisdom saves from the entire group. Three of us fail, me and one other player make the save. I’m about to declare an action, but the GM says that the ravens all start crowing and the fey woman changes shape, becoming a raven. The other ravens all take iff and she joins them, flying away from the courtyard and the fort.

that was how the session ended. I honestly didn't mind the introduction and departure of the fey woman for the most part. It’s a little “cut-scene” for my taste, but I get it: here’s the villain, but she’s for another day.

What drives me a little crazy is the call for a saving throw to be beguiled by her or not. What for? The ones who made the save could do nothing more than those who failed. All it accomplished was it made me think I’d have a chance to do something…and then no, can’t do anything. Nobody can. I found that frustrating in what I woukd have otherwise accepted as a use of Force.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Absolutely. 100%. That's what I'm there for if we're playing Call of Cthulhu. I'm not going to go deep into to my gamer brain or that character place. I'm going to try to unravel the mystery, enjoy the setting, and search for that plot with vigor. Also engage in light characterization.

Yeah, Call of Cthulhu is a game I go into knowing that I’m not going to have a lot of input on the way things go. I think that may be part of the appeal. The game seems to me to largely be an exercise in damage containment. Like crap’s gonna get bad…the question is if the PCs can help minimize the bad, or will they make it worse.

I’m not looking to win in the traditional sense, and I’m not really interested in examining my character all that much, except in the sense of “how do they deal with these horrible things”.

 

[Lanefan]

In D&D, generally an attempt by a dragon to fly of with a PC should be resolved using the grab/grapple mechanics: opposed STR/Athletics checks, etc.

In PbtA, it's a hard move (Capture Someone, Separate Them, Put Someone in a Spot, etc), which generally requires a miss to be narrated (in the absence of a "golden opportunity").

In either system, declaring such a thing "arbitrarily" ie without regard to the resolution mechanics, would seem to be Force- ie suspending the action resolution framework.

Agreed.

My question was, and remains, who gets to decide what happens next - once the grab-and-fly-away sequence has been properly resolved and in this case has worked out in favour of the bird - with regards to the bird (where does it go with its captive) and the captive character?

 

[soviet]

Had our weekly 5e game last night. Let me run this new one by you; it irked me, but I’m curious if others will agree with my reason.

We were heading to the fort to rally the troops against a threat we’d uncovered, only to fond the fort had been taken over by hostile fey creatures. We infiltrated the fort and took out some of the fey, and we freed a couple of the officers. They told us where to find the leader of the occupying fey. They described her as a pale skinned woman with dark hair who could beguile a man simply by looking at him.

We head to the part ofthe fort where this leader’s believed to be, and we run into some of the elite fey and we manage to defeat them. We press on through a door and into a courtyard, and there she is: the dark haired woman. There are dozens of ravens perched in the trees. She looks over at us as we enter and smiles.

The GM calls for Wisdom saves from the entire group. Three of us fail, me and one other player make the save. I’m about to declare an action, but the GM says that the ravens all start crowing and the fey woman changes shape, becoming a raven. The other ravens all take iff and she joins them, flying away from the courtyard and the fort.

that was how the session ended. I honestly didn't mind the introduction and departure of the fey woman for the most part. It’s a little “cut-scene” for my taste, but I get it: here’s the villain, but she’s for another day.

What drives me a little crazy is the call for a saving throw to be beguiled by her or not. What for? The ones who made the save could do nothing more than those who failed. All it accomplished was it made me think I’d have a chance to do something…and then no, can’t do anything. Nobody can. I found that frustrating in what I woukd have otherwise accepted as a use of Force.

Yes I've seen that kind of GM move before, either as a sort of automatic default to sim even if it would be irrelevant or, more likely, as a sort of illusionist's gamble where if everyone fails their save the cut scene is hidden as rules-as-normal. Of course, even one success shows the situation for what it is. I've seen a similar behaviour with perception and stealth rolls where the 'incorrect' result leads to an almost immediate reroll on spurious grounds to get to the right story beat after all.

 

[Lanefan]

Why is the GM going to have to use Force? I mean, they could also empty the bottle of soft drink all over the PC sheets, but how would that help play?

With some characters I've seen, DMed, and played that bottle of pop would represent a huge improvement!

 

[FrozenNorth]

It's not really a matter of degree that a certain decision was made. Either it was or it wasn't. Maybe there will be some edge cases - no one actually decides and the group just coalesces on a certain fiction - but most cases won't be edge cases, will they?

Yes, they will. Is a particular campaign railroady? Depends on the campaign. Maybe it’s a game that is so open-ended that no reasonable person would conclude that it was railroady. Maybe the DM is so inflexible, that most people would conclude that they are being railroaded. Most campaigns are between those extremes.

 

[Lanefan]

Had our weekly 5e game last night. Let me run this new one by you; it irked me, but I’m curious if others will agree with my reason.

We were heading to the fort to rally the troops against a threat we’d uncovered, only to fond the fort had been taken over by hostile fey creatures. We infiltrated the fort and took out some of the fey, and we freed a couple of the officers. They told us where to find the leader of the occupying fey. They described her as a pale skinned woman with dark hair who could beguile a man simply by looking at him.

We head to the part ofthe fort where this leader’s believed to be, and we run into some of the elite fey and we manage to defeat them. We press on through a door and into a courtyard, and there she is: the dark haired woman. There are dozens of ravens perched in the trees. She looks over at us as we enter and smiles.

The GM calls for Wisdom saves from the entire group. Three of us fail, me and one other player make the save. I’m about to declare an action, but the GM says that the ravens all start crowing and the fey woman changes shape, becoming a raven. The other ravens all take iff and she joins them, flying away from the courtyard and the fort.

that was how the session ended. I honestly didn't mind the introduction and departure of the fey woman for the most part. It’s a little “cut-scene” for my taste, but I get it: here’s the villain, but she’s for another day.

What drives me a little crazy is the call for a saving throw to be beguiled by her or not. What for? The ones who made the save could do nothing more than those who failed. All it accomplished was it made me think I’d have a chance to do something…and then no, can’t do anything. Nobody can. I found that frustrating in what I woukd have otherwise accepted as a use of Force.

I think the GM was perhaps being nice to you; in that the woman/raven could just as easily have flown away without revealing her nasty ability. As it is, your lot learned about a trick she's got going for her and can plan around it if-when next you meet.