D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[bedir than]

Conspiracy theories aside, it's quite normal for threads with hundreds of replies to branch out a little.

It's not a conspiracy theory to point out that the people against recognizing the flaws of past consistently and routinely use whataboutisms to maintain the status quo

 

[CleverNickName]

Just pulling this point out because I think it's kind of important and some people will miss it otherwise.

Anyone who wants Mystara to come back should probably be in favour of some kind of amends-based approach, because I can tell y'all, that the disclaimer ain't gonna be enough to save a 5E Mystara, if an unapologized-for GAZ10 hits Twitter, and from there, reddit, video game websites (which tend to cover TT RPGs now), and so on. It won't matter if 5E Mystara has been updated. Especially as then every Mystara product will be interrogated in some detail.

I'd like to chime in as someone who (1) loves the campaign setting, and (2) wants to see an updated Mystara campaign setting for 5E. You are absolutely right, a complete rewrite will be necessary for large portions of the world if they want their product to be viable in the 21st Century. That oft-discussed disclaimer is appropriate for published earlier works that cannot be changed, but it doesn't apply to works that are still being written. They have acknowledged that there are problematic elements in Mystara...choosing not to correct them going forward would be a disaster.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

It won't become the norm for WotC either. They'll just pull the product and if they feel it's too controversial they'll also avoid reboots.

This is the problem with echo-chambers, unfortunately. I think most of the people here can agree that this is a terrible representation, right? That's not really in dispute. With most of the people here.

But these actions will generate controversy. The World Series was just won by a team that still uses the tomahawk chop and a war chant (ahem) that ... true story ... has been traced to a racist cartoon called Pow Wow the Indian Boy.

We have massive and heated debates over whether something that should be relatively unobjectionable (like trying to understand the history and consequences of slavery in America) became a lightning rod.* Even basic things like acknowledging the basic humanity (or gender expression) of transgender people is controversial for some.

....and while I think it is right and good that WoTC is providing inclusive products today, I find it amazing that there are those who are both blithe to the fact that this is still (unfortunately) controversial despite knowing this for a fact from other places, and also not understanding the distinction between the current products WoTC makes and their legacy products.

PS- As it stands, were WoTC to ever release an updated Mystara, I think that they would have a lot of work to do given how much of Mystara has some basis in real-world cultures. This might be the worst, but it's hardly the only example.


*Seriously, it cost the progenitor of the project her chance at tenure.

 

[Umbran]

The Celtic Romano-British where displaced - later by the English (Anglo-Saxons).

So what I gather from this is that you really, really, really want to talk about Britain, rather than what happened to the Native Americans.

Think about that for a while, please.

 

[MGibster]

It's not a conspiracy theory to point out that the people against recognizing the flaws of past consistently and routinely use whataboutisms to maintain the status quo

And here you are continuing to distract from the main topic with this particular tangent. Where does that place you?

 

[MGibster]

This is the problem with echo-chambers, unfortunately. I think most of the people here can agree that this is a terrible representation, right? That's not really in dispute. With most of the people here.

If anyone has defended this particular product, they are decidedly in the minority. I'm not exactly Mr. Sensitivity over here but my response to reading the OP was, "Holy #%#%! That's a really bad, offensive publication!"

But these actions will generate controversy. The World Series was just won by a team that still uses the tomahawk chop and a war chant (ahem) that ... true story ... has been traced to a racist cartoon called Pow Wow the Indian Boy.

As a wee lad I thought Aunt Jemima was just a nice lady who wanted to feed me delicious pancakes. It wasn't until I was an adult that I learned about the history of where such imagery came from. Similarly, I had never heard of Pow Wow the Indian Boy until now. (Of course I'm not one of those people who was upset that they stopped using Aunt Jemima. I'll be damned if I'm going to get into a tizzy because some corporation decides to abandon a fictional spokesperson.)

....and while I think it is right and good that WoTC is providing inclusive products today, I find it amazing that there are those who are both blithe to the fact that this is still (unfortunately) controversial despite knowing this for a fact from other places, and also not understanding the distinction between the current products WoTC makes and their legacy products.

That's pretty much where I am. I don't always agree with all the changes, but I'm not going to fault WotC or any company for making changes to settings, adventures, or new adaptations of old material. I expect them to make whatever changes are necessary to meet the needs of their audience.

 

[CleverNickName]

The Celtic Romano-British where displaced - later by the English (Anglo-Saxons). The Anglo-Saxons largely followed the Scandinavian legal code. A more Romanised code was reintroduced by the Normans.

This is an interesting topic. I saw the moderator warning, though...maybe you could start a new thread about it?

If anyone has defended this particular product, they are decidedly in the minority. I'm not exactly Mr. Sensitivity over here but my response to reading the OP was, "Holy #%#%! That's a really bad, offensive publication!"
...
That's pretty much where I am. I don't always agree with all the changes, but I'm not going to fault WotC or any company for making changes to settings, adventures, or new adaptations of old material. I expect them to make whatever changes are necessary to meet the needs of their audience.

If I had to define my own position on the issue, I would say that I agree that the changes are necessary, and I agree that Wizards of the Coast will need to make extensive changes if they are going to publish new works that are based on old materials. (And since all new works are pretty much based on old works, to some degree....well, you can extrapolate from there.)

Fortunately, WotC has acknowledged these issues, and they have demonstrated that they are making corrections going forward. Consider the changes to race (now "origins") in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. Consider the way stereotypes are being written out of the lore in the recent errata. Consider the changes in the artwork in just the last 10 years alone. The myriad discussions about "race in D&D," "alignment in D&D," "stereotypes in D&D," etc., on this forum alone are evidence that changes are being made, they aren't being made in a vacuum, and those changes are visible and meaningful enough to generate a reaction among consumers.

But are they good reactions?

Well, to get an idea of that, to measure how we the consumers feel about these changes that are being made, we can look at the sales and financial reports over the past few years (1)(2)(3), or the Google/Amazon search histories, etc. The graphs are all up and to the right, so it's safe to say that the consumer base is happy with the way things are going. Which suggests that Wizards of the Coast is on the right track.

 

[Maxperson]

Two things can be true. Since their introduction the Ferengi have repeatedly been presented with various coded anti-Semitic tropes. I do think that DS9 did a lot of work to make them a richer and more diverse people, but didn't always do enough in my view. Honestly, save for Quark, Rom, and Nog (and sometimes even them) anytime Ferengi show up on a Star Trek episode I shudder in anticipation of the cringing I will likely do at least one time during the episode.

As a Jewish man who has watched all of The Next Generation and DS9 multiple times, I never once saw or see even now any anti-semitism in Ferengi. It takes more than, "Well, this act is kinda like this one that people say about the Jews in an anti-semitic manner." Correlation does not equal causation. Just because you can show something kinda matches up, doesn't make the thing you are matching it to the cause.

For me to make the association you say is there, I would need an explicit reference tying Ferengi to Jews. This is why the modern orc argument fails for me, but this Gazetteer 10 is something I find appalling. The OP does make the explicit connections tying it to racism.

 

[Voadam]

Current D&D players thinking about sourcebooks on humanoid areas to slot in to their home games or to use as inspiration for their home games might look around and see or hear about existing ones.

For Orcs I can think of:

Orcs of Thar
Fury in the Wastelands: The Orcs of Tellene
Belkzen Hold of the Orc Hordes

Fury is a licensed D&D product but was not TSR/WotC.
Belkzen is a pathfinder sourcebook and so not even official D&D.

A lot of D&D fans looking for a full TSR/WotC humanoid area sourcebook might see Thar as the only go to.

I bought the shrinkwrapped book based on the premise of the cover and the back info blurb thinking a humanoid area gazetteer would be great. I was not expecting the Looney Tunes humor cultural portrayals.

If someone asks about D&D style Orc area sourcebooks I would mention the three above, but my comments about Thar would probably have a healthy dose of "It is the one I am most familiar with, but . . . you should be aware that . . ."

I think the main benefit of analyses like these is awareness. Some things are fairly straight forward but you have to have access to the inside to know about it, others can be taken different ways such as the punk Orcs enjoying breakdancing. Some things different people will not be aware of and they can slip under your radar.

With awareness a potential audience/customer/D&D player can make their own judgment call on how they feel about the sourcebook and the identified issues and make a more informed choice about a potential purchase or to not be surprised by elements they consider problematic if they choose to get it for other elements (such as the full humanoid classes for B/X), or even if they consider the identified problematic issues as not a problem for them.

 

[Krachek]

I confess that I make a search for an easy free copy of Gaz10. Didn’t work!