D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Ruin Explorer]

I am glad for the day when Mystara receives the full 5e treatment. Yet, as another poster stated, there are some landmines which need to be cleared. That's what amends are for.

Just pulling this point out because I think it's kind of important and some people will miss it otherwise.

Anyone who wants Mystara to come back should probably be in favour of some kind of amends-based approach, because I can tell y'all, that the disclaimer ain't gonna be enough to save a 5E Mystara, if an unapologized-for GAZ10 hits Twitter, and from there, reddit, video game websites (which tend to cover TT RPGs now), and so on. It won't matter if 5E Mystara has been updated. Especially as then every Mystara product will be interrogated in some detail.

Also, just as an aside, I'm disappointed in some of my fellow posters in that they're so apparently alarmed by amends processes and focused on things like "Well it's not much money!". It's like, yeah, it isn't, but amends processes can be a really good thing and help people move on, and mean people coming to stuff in future react with "Oh, right, they addressed this properly!" not "Oh a generic disclaimer" then "OH HOLY HELL I WAS NOT READY FOR THIS AFTER THAT GENERIC DISCLAIMER!!!". They cause some short-term anxiety in favour of long-term gain. They're not a bad thing for companies to do, they just have to be handled right.

 

[MGibster]

Also, just as an aside, I'm disappointed in some of my fellow posters in that they're so apparently alarmed by amends processes and focused on things like "Well it's not much money!".

Because the amends process won't become the norm. The norm will be to simply pull the product and make sure it never sees the light of day again because it's too controversial.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

I was curious about the reception that this book received at the time of its release, so I did a little bit of digging around to see what I could find.

Thank you for this research! Well done.

The review on DriveThruRPG can be found here:

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

And this is the review that I have the biggest problem with, because of this statement here:
That's right: you either love it because it's "groundbreaking," or you hate it because it's "funny."

[...] Still, that dismissive "you don't like this because you don't like funny" really sticks in my craw.

Huh, you put words to what I was feeling, but I hadn't been able to pinpoint what the trick was. I have a great appreciation for Shannon Appelcline, yet here he wrote a fog-inducing false dichotomy.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Because the amends process won't become the norm. The norm will be to simply pull the product and make sure it never sees the light of day again because it's too controversial.

"Not with that attitude it won't!" as my mother might say!

More seriously, it doesn't need to "become the norm" across every industry. It's fine for WotC to do it unilaterally. I get that people are scared, and a lot of people haven't seen amends processes work - but there's a reason @Dungeonosophy is using words like "beautiful" to describe them, because when they are done right (and I think WotC absolutely could do it right), that's what they can be, for everyone involved.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Great.

Snarf Zagyg, I only used the term "fearmongering" once (in post #298) in regard to Zardnaar's repeated assertion that if I raise a fuss, Wizards will just take GAZ10 away.

The specific context was in relation to those of us are concerned about this product, and other, being removed. As I am. That is not "fearmongering," that is a rational reaction. Especially given that the last controversy involving OA had people calling for the permanent removal of the legacy product, and people here (including moderators) supporting that removal.

I'm astounded. Between my research post (which is very specific!), and my asking for a specific course of direct amends, how can the specific issues be unapparent to you?

You are only "astounded" because you took that out of context. There's like, a whole paragraph after that in which I explain it. But I'll say it again-

Given that you had a loose concept of the legal relationships (as already pointed out by others, including Dannyalcatraz), the specific issue is whether the product is still available and causing harm, or whether it ever existed and is causing harm. Now you seem to be focused, instead, on whether Mystara ever gets rebooted- which I would say is completely orthogonal.

And now it's personal. Since I've been "roughed up" and dogpiled and dishonestly by some D&D fans for voicing this. I'm tired of bumping up against a co-dependent fannish desire to "keep up appearances."

To be clear- because you were "roughed up" and "dogpiled" and now its "personal," then ... what? This is your revenge? Great?

You could say the same to the persons who brought forth the original concerns which led to Wizards taking the action to rectify the mischaracterization of Romani culture. You could likewise proclaim: "Its entirely possible to agree with their analysis that the Romani culture has been misportrayed, and still, in good faith, disagree that action must be done to rectify this."

And what did they do? Did they go back through all of their legacy Ravenloft product, and donate it to charity, or did they do better on the products that they were making?

How is that you cannot understand this distinction?

What you say is a contradiction: critical thinking and appreciation are not "good"?

You don't want to hear anything that doesn't agree with your manifesto. Luckily, you can now get others to dogpile for you, and conveniently alienate those that otherwise agree with you.

Since you are intent on misunderstanding what I wrote in order to attack, I'm going to bow out.

 

[bedir than]

There's a lot of threads going on in this discussion, but my comment wasn't specifically about GAZ10. I agree there's no ambiguity there.

The side threads about Rome are just a distraction from attempts at good work. There's no Roman slurs, no belittling, no joke targeting, and Italians themselves are rarely targeted for ethnocentric insults in the modern era

It's almost as if those several side conversations (and the one about noble conquistadors that is now dead) were brought up to create confusion.

 

[Yaarel]

2) Wizards is hiding behind a blandly worded boilerplate disclaimer. Wizards itself admits that "ethic, racial, and gender prejudice" is "wrong." Yet the genericness of the disclaimer is not commensurate with the specificity of the "wrongfulness."

When I looked at the product page that sells GAZ10, I saw the standard disclaimer. But now knowing about some of its problematic content, I felt uncomfortable that there was no hint of it on product page beyond the disclaimer.

Some products are worse than others. That this product in particular should get link to a Dragon+ article to discuss it in more detail, is a particularly good idea, I feel.

 

[billd91]

Huh, you put words to what I was feeling, but I hadn't been able to pinpoint what the trick was. I have a great appreciation for Shannon Appelcline, yet here he wrote a fog-inducing false dichotomy.

Between Appelcline's review and Heard's writing - the only way to find out what they were thinking in either case is to ask them. Might be worth pursuing.

 

[MGibster]

More seriously, it doesn't need to "become the norm" across every industry. It's fine for WotC to do it unilaterally. I get that people are scared, and a lot of people haven't seen amends processes work - but there's a reason @Dungeonosophy is using words like "beautiful" to describe them, because when they are done right (and I think WotC absolutely could do it right), that's what they can be, for everyone involved.

It won't become the norm for WotC either. They'll just pull the product and if they feel it's too controversial they'll also avoid reboots.

The side threads about Rome are just a distraction from attempts at good work. There's no Roman slurs, no belittling, no joke targeting, and Italians themselves are rarely targeted for ethnocentric insults in the modern era

I wasn't talking about Rome either.

It's almost as if those several side conversations (and the one about noble conquistadors that is now dead) were brought up to create confusion.

Conspiracy theories aside, it's quite normal for threads with hundreds of replies to branch out a little.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

@DungeonosophyThe Mystara gazette supplement, GAZ10, earns little or no money today. What would proceeds from it accomplish, as part of the amends?

For one thing, neither you or I knows how much GAZ10 earns today.

We do know that it's $10 a pop for this digital ephemera. Even if only twenty people bought it per year, that's $200.

Which is pocket change to Wizards/Hasbro.

But, I assure you, is not pocket change to the Lakota Waldorf School.