D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Ashtagon]

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How does one present a monstrous human culture in a way that isnt racist?

What should these cultures look like?

The usual solution is to present "goblinoid $culture" in the same product that you present "human $culture". For example, GAZ2 (Ylaruam) could get away with presenting gnolls as bedouin expies because it also presented humans doing the exact same thing. That tends to fall flat as a rework for GAZ10 however, as the entire point of the Broken Lands is that there aren't any humans (TSR's Magitech setting has the same problem on an even larger scale). Shadowrun almost got there, but presented the various fantasy races as social class commentary (the movie Bright went the same route).

 

[Grendel_Khan]

Not trying to be snarky here, but if GAZ10 was just no longer for sale, would we really be worse off for it?

I mean, it seems like a terrible book through and through, and no company is obligated to continue selling everything it's ever made (or inherited, in this case). That's not censorship or slippery slopey nonsense or anything else, just a publishing decision. The idea of putting in the work to "fix" something so shoddy and unessential just seems bizarre to me. Kill it and move on--whatever copies already exist are enough to support further analysis.

 

[billd91]

I see what youre getting at. But. The monstrosity is itself a negative.

I think it would feel off if, for example, the South Korean culture was a beautiful superhuman and the Japanese one was an Oni ogre.

From that description, my money would be on it being a South Korean publication (or South Korean-influenced) because it definitely comes with a perspective.

By the way, I feel it impossible to not implement reallife cultures. We are humans who think like humans. The only question is whether it is recognizably a specific culture or else a less obvious remix of several cultures.

I agree that it's impossible not to implement something that's present in real life cultures. It's what we know.
But remixing several cultures is also fraught with a certain amount of peril - see the controversy surrounding Monte Cook Games and the Thunder Plains where they were accused of appropriation, in part, because of how they amalgamated or 'remixed' multiple indigenous cultures.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I think it would feel off if, for example, the South Korean culture was a beautiful superhuman and the Japanese one was an Oni ogre.

That's what I'm saying not to do.

The Japanese have been stereotyped as barbaric cruel monsters, particularly in war, who are scary and weird, and that outside war, they follow strange and disturbing customs.

So I am saying, don't pair that with a humanoid race which has the same or similar or even related stereotypes.

Oni are not only Japanese mythology (so that's already bad from this angle), but they're typically presented as barbaric cruel monsters, who are scary and weird, and follow strange and disturbing customs.

So don't do that!

Japanese cultural elements + Dwarfs or Halflings, say, would be fairly safe. There's very little crossover in stereotypes. And you can pick and choose what to use. As you said also, maybe don't use entire cultures, just use parts of them. Combine some parts of a Japanese local culture (it's a big country with a lot of people, it has more than one culture, not) and you might be fine.

Note this is just very crude advice to like eliminate the worst cases, the ones will unavoidably lead to unfortunate stuff. You still have to pay attention to what you're doing.

I would in general avoid assigning "beautiful superhumans" any Earth cultures, because that just doesn't tend to end well. If you can't make up a culture for them without "borrowing", pick one from Star Trek or something and emulate that.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

But remixing several cultures is also fraught with a certain amount of peril - see the controversy surrounding Monte Cook Games and the Thunder Plains where they were accused of appropriation, in part, because of how they amalgamated or 'remixed' multiple indigenous cultures.

Again, this is easy to deal with.

Be careful whenever you are dealing with indigenous or otherwise-oppressed cultures. In particular, don't treat them like they're interchangeable, and maybe talk to people from those cultures (where they still exist - many do) about what you're thinking of doing. It's not hard with the internet.

I think if you need a really simple rule, don't swirl a bunch of cultures a 1950s white guy would say were "kinda the same" together. Pick from different groups. Ancient Greece, Medieval Japan, and Dark Ages Britain, say. Not Medieval Japan, Medieval Korea, Medieval China. Not Austrialian indigenous peoples, South American indigenous peoples, North American Indigenous peoples.

Again, this is just a basic method people can use to avoid the worst screw-ups.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Another way to put all this, if you want to avoid harmful stereotypes, if you think two things "naturally go together", maybe don't do that! Or the very least be a hell of a lot more careful if you do.

An awful lot of the racist stuff in RPGs comes down to people lazily saying "Oh, this humanoid race is tribal warriors, so I'll just give them a tribal warrior culture from Earth! Job done! I'm a genius!" or similar.

If it's an easy match based on 20th century stereotypes - think twice.

 

[Yaarel]

That's what I'm saying not to do.

The Japanese have been stereotyped as barbaric cruel monsters, particularly in war, who are scary and weird, and that outside war, they follow strange and disturbing customs.

So I am saying, don't pair that with a humanoid race which has the same or similar or even related stereotypes.

Oni are not only Japanese mythology (so that's already bad from this angle), but they're typically presented as barbaric cruel monsters, who are scary and weird, and follow strange and disturbing customs.

So don't do that!

Agreed.

Japanese cultural elements + Dwarfs or Halflings, say, would be fairly safe. There's very little crossover in stereotypes. And you can pick and choose what to use. As you said also, maybe don't use entire cultures, just use parts of them. Combine some parts of a Japanese local culture (it's a big country with a lot of people, it has more than one culture, not) and you might be fine.

I am sensitive to how D&D portrays Nordic cultures. I know I would be annoyed if the Brits were all "elves" and the Nordics were all "halflings".

Note this is just very crude advice to like eliminate the worst cases, the ones will unavoidably lead to unfortunate stuff. You still have to pay attention to what you're doing.

The thing is, with regard to constructing cultures for a nonhuman species, Im not even at the stage of "useful rule of thumb".

Obviously, factionalism with diversity is part of the solution for any nonhuman species.

But here the question is how to utilize the traits from reallife cultures, whether straightforwardly or remix.

I would in general avoid assigning "beautiful superhumans" any Earth cultures, because that just doesn't tend to end well. If you can't make up a culture for them without "borrowing", pick one from Star Trek or something and emulate that.

Probably the "beautiful" species should be able to represent any culture.

 

[MGibster]

Not trying to be snarky here, but if GAZ10 was just no longer for sale, would we really be worse off for it?

No. While there's a good chance I saw GAZ10 for sale at Lonestar Comics in Dallas around 1988-89, I really didn't know about its existence until reading about it in this thread. This isn't about GAZ10 though, it's about the bigger issue of how we reconcile our desire and enjoyment of material produced in the past with what we recognize as "problematic" aspects of that same work today. While I agree that GAZ10 has some terrible depictions, I wouldn't say the work is entirely without merit.

 

[Yaarel]

Another way to put all this, if you want to avoid harmful stereotypes, if you think two things "naturally go together", maybe don't do that! Or the very least be a hell of a lot more careful if you do.

This too is tricky.

For example, if jotnar (who are normally human size but occasionally much larger) is a D&D species, I would prefer it to have an accurate Nordic culture, even speak the same languages that Nordic humans speak.

Emphasis on an "accurate" Nordic culture. Misrepresentations and stereotypes would feel highly problematic.

An awful lot of the racist stuff in RPGs comes down to people lazily saying "Oh, this humanoid race is tribal warriors, so I'll just give them a tribal warrior culture from Earth! Job done! I'm a genius!" or similar.

Agreed.

If it's an easy match based on 20th century stereotypes - think twice.

Agreed.

 

[Yaarel]

As a rule of thumb, D&D designers who are from a particular culture or intimate with it should be the ones creating official content to represent that culture.

Even this rule of thumb isnt a fool-proof. But it feels like a reasonable starting point.