D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Bedrockgames]

The descriptions of drow culture (udadrow) feel Neutral Evil. They are as much group-oriented as they are individual-oriented. Perhaps even moreso group-oriented.

I wonder if they are perceived as if "Chaotic" because they have black skin.

I think it probably depends on the setting. I mostly ran Ravenloft, but did read the Forgotten Realms Books and the Dragonlance books (and play in campaigns set in those settings). The drow concept in my opinion was a culture being shaped by the system. You see that very strongly if you read the dark elf trilogy. I liked the first three books in the Icewind Dale Trilogy and the Dark Elf trilogy when they came out. I read the dark elf trilogy again about 7 years ago, and the mechanics of AD&D 2E (? pretty sure it was 2E, know some of the Salvatore stuff crossed the threshold of 1E to 2E), shaped so much of it. Everything from how Drizzt is told by an NPC that he is a ranger (that scene really stood out reading it years later), but the dark elf culture essentially looked like a thought experiment to me, of Salvatore trying to take the description of Neutral Evil and make a society based on it that made some kind of sense. It felt very star trek to me in a way. I will say, nothing about the culture came across as being savage. It was presented as a pretty sophisticated culture, just based on an evil ideology.

They are worth reading if you want a sense of what was going on at that time in the hobby. I would say you probably want to keep in mind this was just after the satanic panic too, so it is interesting in that there is a surprising of 'metal' vibe to it. Not sure how different it might have been if the Satanic Panic hadn't just happened (I imagine it could have gotten bit darker).

 

[Yaarel]

"A tall human tribesman strides through a blizzard, draped in fur and hefting his axe."

"A half-orc snarls at the latest challenger to her authority over their savage tribe, ready to break his neck with her bare hands as she did to the last six rivals."

"People of towns and cities take pride in how their civilized ways set them apart from animals, as if denying one's own nature was a mark of superiority. To a barbarian, though, civilization is no virtue, but a sign of weakness. The strong embrace their animal nature-keen instincts, primal physicality, and ferocious rage."

"They thrive in the wilds of their homelands: the tundra, jungle, or grasslands where their tribes live and hunt."

"Perhaps you were a prisoner of war, brought in chains to "civilized" lands and only now able to win your freedom."

"Many of the lands of the Sword Coast and the North are savage, where day-to-day survival is a struggle. Such lands breed hardy tribes and fierce warriors, such as the Reghed and Uthgardt barbarians of the North and the seafaring Northlanders of the Moonshae Isles and the northernmost reaches of the Sword Coast."

You were saying?

Even your citations feel more like Germania versus Roma.

By the way, to the degree that Uthgardt (Útgarðr) is Nordic, there remains pervasive misrepresentation of Nordic peoples.

 

[CleverNickName]

The descriptions of drow culture (udadrow) feel Neutral Evil. They are as much group-oriented as they are individual-oriented. Perhaps even moreso group-oriented.

I wonder if they are perceived as if "Chaotic" because they have black skin.

The Drow used to have black skin; updated descriptions and artwork show a variety of skin tones ranging from chalky-gray to dark purple. I don't believe this change is an accident...I think the designers and writers are making a deliberate shift away from the problematic racial stereotypes from the 1980s and early 1990s. It's evidence that Wizards of the Coast has recognized a problem, and is taking steps to correct it.

(See also: racial alignment)

I think GAZ10 will be no exception. I get the impression that Wizards of the Coast recognizes that the material contained herein is problematic, and they are genuinely interested in never repeating this problem.

 

[Maxperson]

Even your citations feel more like Germania versus Roma.

By the way, to the degree that Uthgardt (Útgarðr) is Nordic, there remains pervasive misrepresentation of Nordic peoples.

Those quotes feel no different to me than the orc quotes which are entirely along the same vein.

 

[Yaarel]

It's evidence that Wizards of the Coast has recognized a problem, and is taking steps to correct it.

Yes. And I appreciate the effort by WotC to correct those D&D traditions that include troubling content.

 

[Scribe]

I wonder if they are perceived as if "Chaotic" because they have black skin.

No, they would be perceived to be Chaotic because of the infighting, backstabbing, and seemingly chaotic nature of the Drow of Menzoberranzan. Or perhaps because their Goddess is Chaotic?

Skin colour has nothing to do with it in the slightest, weird reach?

 

[Voadam]

The "Barbarian" feels mainly German. I doubt it counts as a "primitive" "savage".

That would ignore a lot of the Conan influence. Barbarians and Savages were generally two sides of the same non-civilized coin.

 

[Voadam]

The descriptions of drow culture (udadrow) feel Neutral Evil. They are as much group-oriented as they are individual-oriented. Perhaps even moreso group-oriented.

I wonder if they are perceived as if "Chaotic" because they have black skin.

As opposed to being Chaotic because elves are generally Chaotic and the Drow have traditionally been followers of the Chaotic Evil Demon Queen of Spiders?

 

[Voadam]

Some early D&D traditions have Lawful (= civilized) versus Chaotic (= uncivilized) as the main alignment system.

Orcs have been all over the place on the Law-Chaos spectrum,

OD&D had them as Neutral or Chaotic.

AD&D 1e and 2e had them as Lawful Evil.

B/X, BECMI, RC D&D had them as Chaotic.

3e and on generally had them as Chaotic Evil.

 

[The Glen]

The Drow used to have black skin; updated descriptions and artwork show a variety of skin tones ranging from chalky-gray to dark purple. I don't believe this change is an accident...I think the designers and writers are making a deliberate shift away from the problematic racial stereotypes from the 1980s and early 1990s. It's evidence that Wizards of the Coast has recognized a problem, and is taking steps to correct it.

(See also: racial alignment)

I think GAZ10 will be no exception. I get the impression that Wizards of the Coast recognizes that the material contained herein is problematic, and they are genuinely interested in never repeating this problem.

Ironically enough Drow way back in the beginning had alabaster white skin instead of black. They were palette-swapped after their first appearance because the white elf on white pages looked terrible. They also had short curly hair instead of the long straight hair they have now.