D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Maxperson]

We need to be less essentialist about this. Orcs are Orcs, they don't resemble Native Americans (or any other ethnicity) all the time. In fact, because of what they are, they might resemble different ethnicities as different times and in different uses.

As I said earlier, the issue here is essentially structural. D&D is extremely American. One only needs to compare it to Warhammar, a British game, to see some of those differences. D&D tends to assume big wilderness areas and frontiers and keeps on borderlands. This may not be universal, but it's common. Take for example the North in Forgotten Realms the 'Savage Frontier'. It clearly is influenced by ideas of the North American frontier. And part of the narrative structure of stories of the frontier is the savage threat beyond the frontier. Orcs (and other monsters) fill this roll in Forgotten Realms. Reavers do the same in Firefly. This doesn't mean that Orcs necessarily have Native American characteristics, they can fill that role without feathered headresses or rain dances, or scalping or whatever other stereptypical idea of Native Americans is in the culture. But when people recognise this structural role, it's very easy, if they're careless, to start adding in those ideas as well.

And if you're setting is consciously not North American then you might start looking for other details to help flesh out the Orcs in their structural role and suddenly your Orcs are Mongolians or Zulus, or Saraceans or something else.

I'm not completely convinced that these frontiers are based on the American frontier. I think that in a game like D&D if there are no wild areas where monsters dwell, then you are very, very limited in the types of monsters you use or placed for or monsters to come from. If you do have wild areas, then there must be a "frontier" between civilization and those wild areas. I think D&D frontiers are more a product of necessity than American influence.

 

[Mordhau]

I'm not completely convinced that these frontiers are based on the American frontier. I think that in a game like D&D if there are no wild areas where monsters dwell, then you are very, very limited in the types of monsters you use or placed for or monsters to come from. If you do have wild areas, then there must be a "frontier" between civilization and those wild areas. I think D&D frontiers are more a product of necessity than American influence.

Based on...? I think you're still be overly essentialist.

Think of it this way. In an American game, if you have a frontier, how can it not be informed by the long history of stories of the American frontier?

It doesn't matter why you have it. Even if it's a structural necessty it has to be informed by something. Is it the 12th century border between Outremer and Dar al-Islam? Is it the 10th Century Russian wilderness into which the Rus traders and warriors sailed or, the late Roman danube with the Germanic tribes on the other side waiting for the river to freeze? I think it's obvious that Americans are going to pick a reference point that's a lot closer to home.

The western frontier may not be the only frontier that informs it, all these other frontiers stretching back into history are probably there to, but it would be surprising if it weren't the predominant one.

 

[Maxperson]

Based on...? I think you're still be overly essentialist.

Think of it this way. In an American game, if you have a frontier, how can it not be informed by the long history of stories of the American frontier?

I already explained to you how it can not be informed by the American frontier. Take a look at the D&D monster books. The overwhelming majority of them cannot exist in a world that has no uncivilized areas. There's no place for them to live where they wouldn't be instantly killed by the civilized races.

D&D by it's very nature requires on an academic level, uncivilized wilds where monsters dwell. That necessity automatically creates a frontier between the civilized areas and the wilds. At no point is the American frontier necessary to even know about for a frontier to be necessary for D&D.

You mentioned Warhammer not having a frontier. For that to be possible, there can be no uncivilized area anywhere that is not completely isolated, such as an island in the middle of the ocean. That means that unless you're going to set up nonsensical gameplay where dragons, beholders and Remorhazes just hang around next to towns and cities, you don't have that sort of monster in the game.

Even if it's a structural necessty it has to be informed by something. Is it the 12th century border between Outremer and Dar al-Islam? Is it the 10th Century Russian wilderness into which the Rus traders and warriors sailed or, the late Roman danube with the Germanic tribes on the other side waiting for the river to freeze? I think it's obvious that Americans are going to pick a reference point that's a lot closer to home.

In my opinion it doesn't really matter. And in D&D it's all of those. At no point in the history of D&D has every frontier town been a lawless(or nearly so) place with saloons and spell fights happening over insults. Some may be like that, but others have very different feels to them.

The western frontier may not be the only frontier that informs it, all these other frontiers stretching back into history are probably there to, but it would be surprising if it weren't the predominant one.

As an American who grew up on cowboy movies and tales of the old west, I didn't get the western frontier vibe from the majority of D&D frontiers.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Based on...? I think you're still be overly essentialist.

Think of it this way. In an American game, if you have a frontier, how can it not be informed by the long history of stories of the American frontier?

It doesn't matter why you have it. Even if it's a structural necessty it has to be informed by something. Is it the 12th century border between Outremer and Dar al-Islam? Is it the 10th Century Russian wilderness into which the Rus traders and warriors sailed or, the late Roman danube with the Germanic tribes on the other side waiting for the river to freeze? I think it's obvious that Americans are going to pick a reference point that's a lot closer to home.

The western frontier may not be the only frontier that informs it, all these other frontiers stretching back into history are probably there to, but it would be surprising if it weren't the predominant one.

I am sure there is American frontier in there but I think other frontiers play just as big a role (as well as all kinds of other stories involving venturing into places that aren't familiar). But one thing to keep in mind: not every American watches westerns. It is a genre, and a very old one that hasn't been in its heyday for some time. I imagine someone of Gygax's generation had a high likelihood of being influenced by westerns (though I can't speak to that). But someone my age, who grew up in the 80s, could have easily gone without watching any westerns. As a kid I wasn't that it into them, and only saw a handful (I remember liking Pale Rider for example) but mostly I watched other types of shows). And when Americans think of medieval and medieval fantasy, that is informed more by other media I think (growing up my introduction to that stuff was movies like Excalibur, books like Ivanhoe, etc). I another point to consider: America is big and varies a lot by region. You do have large wide open spaces in places like where Gygax is from. But if your from the North East things are much closer in distance. So I think this idea that D&D represents how Americans view fantasy is only true for certain Americans (Gygax possibly but again I can't really speak to his personal life and what informed his thinking). And there isn't exactly a frontier anymore so it isn't like it is part of the geography here where you would be so aware of it. All we really have are large state forests (even where I live, which is just a few miles north of Boston, we have bit areas of state forest----there is one right in my city in fact). And I think those are probably a much bigger influence on how we think about wilderness and going into the unknown than the frontier at this point.

 

[Mordhau]

You mentioned Warhammer not having a frontier.

No I mentioned it being British. It's a lot more urban in nature and not really a game with much focus on travelling through wilderness.

I am sure there is American frontier in there but I think other frontiers play just as big a role (as well as all kinds of other stories involving venturing into places that aren't familiar). But one thing to keep in mind: not every American watches westerns. It is a genre, and a very old one that hasn't been in its heyday for some time. I imagine someone of Gygax's generation had a high likelihood of being influenced by westerns (though I can't speak to that). But someone my age, who grew up in the 80s, could have easily gone without watching any westerns. As a kid I wasn't that it into them, and only saw a handful (I remember liking Pale Rider for example) but mostly I watched other types of shows). And when Americans think of medieval and medieval fantasy, that is informed more by other media I think (growing up my introduction to that stuff was movies like Excalibur, books like Ivanhoe, etc). I another point to consider: America is big and varies a lot by region. You do have large wide open spaces in places like where Gygax is from. But if your from the North East things are much closer in distance. So I think this idea that D&D represents how Americans view fantasy is only true for certain Americans (Gygax possibly but again I can't really speak to his personal life and what informed his thinking). And there isn't exactly a frontier anymore so it isn't like it is part of the geography here where you would be so aware of it. All we really have are large state forests (even where I live, which is just a few miles north of Boston, we have bit areas of state forest----there is one right in my city in fact). And I think those are probably a much bigger influence on how we think about wilderness and going into the unknown than the frontier at this point.

I think maybe it's like trying to explain to a fish what water is.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I think maybe it's like trying to explain to a fish what water is.

I think that is a bit insulting to be honest. I think you are assuming a lot about the American mindset that isn't as much the case as you think.

 

[Maxperson]

No I mentioned it being British. It's a lot more urban in nature and not really a game with much focus on travelling through wilderness.

Okay. So not the sort of game to have lots of nasty monsters.

I think maybe it's like trying to explain to a fish what water is.

Or maybe you're just assuming too much influence by the American frontier. I love, though, how just because I don't agree with you that "I'm blind to how it's actually true."

 

[Bedrockgames]

Based on...? I think you're still be overly essentialist.....


It doesn't matter why you have it. Even if it's a structural necessty it has to be informed by something. Is it the 12th century border between Outremer and Dar al-Islam? Is it the 10th Century Russian wilderness into which the Rus traders and warriors sailed or, the late Roman danube with the Germanic tribes on the other side waiting for the river to freeze? I think it's obvious that Americans are going to pick a reference point that's a lot closer to home.

The argument you are making seems rather essentialist actually. I can't see why my default is going to be 19th century western frontier, versus the Roman danube. I was much more interested in the latter than the former growing up (and I suspect a lot of people who gamed had similar interests in history outside the US). Also that old western frontier is physically very distant from where a lot of Americans live.

 

[Voadam]

R.E. Howard specifically based a bunch of Conan stories with the Picts on American frontier adventure stories of frontiersmen dealing with Indians. Gygax cited Conan as one of the inspirations for D&D. He included Boot Hill western crossover advice in the 1e DMG. Murlynd the gunslinger mage/paladin was a character in his campaign that he turned into a quasi-deity for Greyhawk.

I easily see mythic Wild West stories as a theme consistent with and somewhat underlying some D&D. Most places in D&D you can walk around with your gun/sword on your side, either alone or as a small group. Individual people taking up arms to deal with problems is common. There is a lot of adventuresome combat. The tavern is really close to the saloon thematically. There is the paladin like Lone Ranger and the famous gunslingers who can be evil. Greyhawk's vast spaces between cities and kingdoms fits in with the spaces of the west.

 

[Mordhau]

The argument you are making seems rather essentialist actually. I can't see why my default is going to be 19th century western frontier, versus the Roman danube. I was much more interested in the latter than the former growing up (and I suspect a lot of people who gamed had similar interests in history outside the US). Also that old western frontier is physically very distant from where a lot of Americans live.

It really isn't. The argument you and Maxperson think you are responding to probably is but the argument I was making isn't.

Look unless you both get your misreading out of your heads and try to think about what I was actually saying, rather than what you are it there isn't really anywhere to go with this.