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D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

I easily see mythic Wild West stories as a theme consistent with and somewhat underlying some D&D. Most places in D&D you can walk around with your gun/sword on your side, either alone or as a small group. Individual people taking up arms to deal with problems is common. There is a lot of adventuresome combat. The tavern is really close to the saloon thematically. There is the paladin like Lone Ranger and the famous gunslingers who can be evil. Greyhawk's vast spaces between cities and kingdoms fits in with the spaces of the west.

You can also find most of these elements in the wuxia genre as well. And that is from the other side of the Globe. Like I said, I am sure there are american frontier influences, but there are lots of influences in something like D&D and this argument that it basically boils down to cowboys and indians, seems extremely reductionist to me.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The argument you are making seems rather essentialist actually. I can't see why my default is going to be 19th century western frontier, versus the Roman danube. I was much more interested in the latter than the former growing up (and I suspect a lot of people who gamed had similar interests in history outside the US). Also that old western frontier is physically very distant from where a lot of Americans live.
And it hasn't existed in more than 100 years. I live in California, which is as west as you can get without being in Hawaii, and I've never once felt any frontier influence here. In fact, the only time I can remember any frontier influence here in the west was at the actual Frontier casino in Vegas. :p
 

It really isn't. The argument you and Maxperson think you are responding to probably is but the argument I was making isn't.

Look unless you both get your misreading out of your heads and try to think about what I was actually saying, rather than what you are it there isn't really anywhere to go with this.

I think we are both responding to what you are typing. It is always possible we misunderstood you, or you didn't express yourself clearly. But if that is the case, then please clarify your argument.
 

You can also find most of these elements in the wuxia genre as well. And that is from the other side of the Globe. Like I said, I am sure there are american frontier influences, but there are lots of influences in something like D&D and this argument that it basically boils down to cowboys and indians, seems extremely reductionist to me.
It would be yes. Were anyone making it.
 


Yaarel

🇮🇱He-Mage
I already explained to you how it can not be informed by the American frontier. Take a look at the D&D monster books. The overwhelming majority of them cannot exist in a world that has no uncivilized areas. There's no place for them to live where they wouldn't be instantly killed by the civilized races.

D&D by it's very nature requires on an academic level, uncivilized wilds where monsters dwell. That necessity automatically creates a frontier between the civilized areas and the wilds. At no point is the American frontier necessary to even know about for a frontier to be necessary for D&D.

You mentioned Warhammer not having a frontier. For that to be possible, there can be no uncivilized area anywhere that is not completely isolated, such as an island in the middle of the ocean. That means that unless you're going to set up nonsensical gameplay where dragons, beholders and Remorhazes just hang around next to towns and cities, you don't have that sort of monster in the game.

In my opinion it doesn't really matter. And in D&D it's all of those. At no point in the history of D&D has every frontier town been a lawless(or nearly so) place with saloons and spell fights happening over insults. Some may be like that, but others have very different feels to them.

As an American who grew up on cowboy movies and tales of the old west, I didn't get the western frontier vibe from the majority of D&D frontiers. 🤷‍♂️

A "saloon" in D&D, less so.

But a "tavern" in a small town in the midst of a great wilderness expanse, kinda yeah.

D&D originated as a "medieval" Europhile romp. But it was by US Midwesterners.
 

Even reducing it to "American frontier" is reductionist. D&D has a bunch of different kinds of frontiers amongst the various settings, editions and supplements.
It would be yes. Were anyone doing that.

The western frontier may not be the only frontier that informs it, all these other frontiers stretching back into history are probably there to, but it would be surprising if it weren't the predominant one.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
A "saloon" in D&D, less so.

But a "tavern" in a small town in the midst of a great wilderness expanse, kinda yeah.
Really? You think people living in a town in old Europe didn't have a place to go drink? Towns will have a tavern. That doesn't make it a saloon based on the American frontier, even if that town is on a D&D frontier.
 

The western frontier may not be the only frontier that informs it, all these other frontiers stretching back into history are probably there to, but it would be surprising if it weren't the predominant one.

But this is what we are arguing against. I have said several times it is probably an influence, I just think you are overestimating how much of a default it is for americans as their reference point for frontiers.
 

Really? You think people living in a town in old Europe didn't have a place to go drink? Towns will have a tavern. That doesn't make it a saloon based on the American frontier, even if that town is on a D&D frontier.
Small towns. Generally no. A housewife would brew up some ale and put a sign on her door. If you were looking for a place to sleep you would bed down in someone's house exchange for labour or money (or for free if you had some connection to them).

Now where might this narrative structure in which every town has a tavern/inn have possibly come from?
 

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