D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Mordhau]

It depends on the writer and game designer in question. If they are a Roman history buff, and not into westerns, frontiers like the Roman Danube will have more of an influence. If they are into wuxia, southern China is probably more of an influence. If they are into westerns, the western frontier. But I also don't think americans equate wilderness and frontier. Like I said, we have large state forests and a lot of us spent time camping in the woods growing up

See this is what I meant by fish and water. The focus on the wilderness is a big part of the American influence.

And yes. A game set in China will have Chinese influences, but unless the GM and players are very very deeply steeped in Chinese culture and language and history, if played by Americans it's going to be very American.

 

[Bedrockgames]

See this is what I meant by fish and water. The focus on the wilderness is a big part of the American influence.

And yes. A game set in China will have Chinese influences, but unless the GM and players are very very deeply steeped in Chinese culture and language and history, if played by Americans it's going to be very American.

Sure there is likely an influence having the wilderness but plenty of Europe has forest too. So I don't think that is uniquely American. We do have large nature preserves though and I can see that influencing how we view adventure. But the more significant point is it doesn't therefore pin orcs to native americans, if the wilderness element largely just comes from camping in state forests. I could see how someone might think: well they are americans and there are these orcs living in tribes in the wilderness, so they must be inspired by native americans. But I think it is really a crap shoot because that GM could just as easily have been thinking about the Teutoburg Forest and Germanic tribes.

Well, I think Americans like media from a variety of places, especially American gamers. I am much more interested in wuxia films than I am in westerns (though interestingly there is spaghetti western influence on a lot of wuxia films---so I can definitely see some of these points having merit). I just think a very simple view of how Americans might think about these things is being presented. Especially after a lot of these tropes have cycled back and forth from culture to culture (like if I watch Dragon Inn and take my inspiration for showdown at an inn on the frontier there, any influence from westerns and, incidentally James Bond, movies has been through such a filter, that once I sit down to make a game inspired by it, the American western frontier is so removed, I don't know how relevant it really is anymore.

 

[Maxperson]

Not many of them in the wilderness though.

This is where you really aren't getting what I was saying. You seem to think that a western influence means that every tavern should be a saloon and then you tell me it's not as if that reveals anything than your failure to understand what I was saying. Taverns are based off of the Prancing Pony mostly, from the Lord of the Rings in terms of their superficial detail, but the way they are used, their structural role, is very similiar to the Western.

I'm not sure where you're getting the "in the wilderness" from. A frontier town isn't in the wilderness. It's.........................on the frontier. The line where behind you is civilized and AHEAD of you is wilderness.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes. I said that first.

Cool. Then we agree that it's not American frontier, but a mutt frontier.

No. Imaginary material does not come from a culture less void.

Nor is it connected to any particular culture. Most individual pieces of these kinds of town can be found in many different cultures. It's a very specific mixture and attitude that defines something as American, English, Scottish or whatever.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Because the D&D orcs are a "race", American tropes tend to play them out as Native Americans, conceived as a race. In GAZ10, the tropes and connotations play out overtly as "red orcs".

D&D traditions seem most likely to go wrong while misrepresenting "primitive" "tribal" "savages".

A carry over from pulp sensibilities that were an early influence on the game, I'd guess.

(You often see an interesting dynamic where there's a fine line in the pulps how much civilization is good; too basic and you're "savages" too advanced and you're "corrupt".)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yeah, being American makes your family history very interesting. I'm sure that people from different countries also have a ton of ancestors from different places, but the fact that America has been a "melting pot" for so long makes it fairly unique in the different heritages that most people that live here have.

(My father's side is primarily English and Scandinavian with a bit of German and Irish mixed in, and my mother's side is mostly English and Irish with a mix of Scottish and French, too. Just saying "American" is way easier than spouting your whole family history.)

Yep. Despite my long list, I’ve no doubt forgotten some details. Hell, astute observers would note that- despite my claims of being black- not one region or ethnicity I listed would be considered a cradle of “blackness”. I’d have to go back and read that DNA test printout very carefully to tell anyone what region of Africa features in my heritage.

 

[MGibster]

Yep. Despite my long list, I’ve no doubt forgotten some details. Hell, astute observers would note that- despite my claims of being black, not one region or ethnicity I listed would be considered a cradle of “blackness”. I’d have to go back and read that DNA test printout very carefully to tell anyone what region of Africa features in my heritage.

A few years back my sister started talking about our Irish heritage. I had to gently break it to her that we don't have any Irish heritage and that both sides of our family came from Scotland and England. The only reason I know is because I used to have a job at the public library helping people with genealogical research and took an interest in the research my great uncle started.

 

[Thomas Shey]

A few years back my sister started talking about our Irish heritage. I had to gently break it to her that we don't have any Irish heritage and that both sides of our family came from Scotland and England. The only reason I know is because I used to have a job at the public library helping people with genealogical research and took an interest in the research my great uncle started.

If she was a smartass, she's answer that Scots were just Irish that learned how to swim.

(If you go back far enough, its not even wrong...)

 

[Faolyn]

R.E. Howard specifically based a bunch of Conan stories with the Picts on American frontier adventure stories of frontiersmen dealing with Indians. Gygax cited Conan as one of the inspirations for D&D. He included Boot Hill western crossover advice in the 1e DMG. Murlynd the gunslinger mage/paladin was a character in his campaign that he turned into a quasi-deity for Greyhawk.

Gygax also cited Fletcher Pratt as a major influence. In addition to fiction, Pratt wrote a lot of history books on the Civil War.

 

[Faolyn]

It's a mixture. Think of D&D frontiers as mutts. People aren't building western one horse towns. They're generally just making stuff up that really has no connection to any particular type of real world frontier. Some specific settings or modules, though, make an effort to create towns with a Roman, Greek, or whatever vibe to them.

No, they're building tiny hamlets in the middle of an expanse of untamed wilderness filled with dangers and are periodically raided by savage humanoids.

Yeah, they're flavored Medieval Europe or Ancient Greek or whatever, but there's clearly an Old West-by-way-of-the-movies influence there.