D&D 5E Casters vs Martials: Part 2 - The Mundane Limit

[Jfdlsjfd]

It's nonsensical or every creature to be goaded by normal words, though. Like completely nonsensical. There's nothing you or that fighter could say that would get me to rush you like that. The only way you or that fighter could do it would be with some sort of supernatural mind control.

Feigning to trip, giving you an easy kill over an otherwise fantastic opponent? Who jumps to his feat and impale you with a gotcha smile?

The limit of providing explanation to powers is that what is good for, say, human brigands or soliders won't work with a bear protecting its cubs or a demonic swarm of flying larvae with whom you share no language. I am split between letting player narrate (it forces them to do better than "I attack" or "I attack... with my sword! can I have inspiration for my flourished description?") and having wildly broad powers...

 

[Tonguez]

Everything Martials can do comes down to really good Skills, Time and Other People
Magic removes the time constraints (and often reliance on people) but fundamentally it highlights that the problem with Magic in DnD is that using Magic isnt a Skill - its just a declaration "I cast reality warping spell" and its the target that rolls to resist.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Everything Martials can do comes down to really good Skills, Time and Other People
Magic removes the time constraints (and often reliance on people) but fundamentally it highlights that the problem with Magic in DnD is that using Magic isnt a Skill - its just a declaration "I cast reality warping spell" and its the target that rolls to resist.

I liked incantions in 3.5 and rituals in 4e more from this point of view, when the relevant skill check turned a spell up and down. I disliked other things in 4e ritual: the general nerf of magic that was unsuitable to my favorite world that relies on wide magic, and the fact that component costs were high. No role model of caster in my favorite fantasy is Scrooge McDuck trying to pinch every penny because a Tenser's floating disc is 10 GP per 8 hours (while a porter is 1 sp a day). Sure there were feat to remove the component cost but they might have been granting with casting class... as in "Sure, anyone can cast Summon Hastur the Arcana check is 15. Of course, having him summoned and under control is 40, you should really have read the second page of the ritual..." So a strong specialization in those skills would make sense.

 

[Maxperson]

Feigning to trip, giving you an easy kill over an otherwise fantastic opponent? Who jumps to his feat and impale you with a gotcha smile?

The limit of providing explanation to powers is that what is good for, say, human brigands or soliders won't work with a bear protecting its cubs or a demonic swarm of flying larvae with whom you share no language. I am split between letting player narrate (it forces them to do better than "I attack" or "I attack... with my sword! can I have inspiration for my flourished description?") and having wildly broad powers...

My issue is that it's not even going to work with all human soldiers or brigands. Each person has different triggers and some can't be triggered. Further, 8 human soldiers aren't going to rush in simultaneously. They'd get in each others way.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Feigning to trip, giving you an easy kill over an otherwise fantastic opponent? Who jumps to his feat and impale you with a gotcha smile?

The limit of providing explanation to powers is that what is good for, say, human brigands or soliders won't work with a bear protecting its cubs or a demonic swarm of flying larvae with whom you share no language. I am split between letting player narrate (it forces them to do better than "I attack" or "I attack... with my sword! can I have inspiration for my flourished description?") and having wildly broad powers...

Presumably what the Fighter does to induce their opponents to try to close the gap will depend on what opponents they are fighting. It sounds like something you would have to be an expert in combat stimulus-response to judge the correct inducement, but eminently possible. Particularly when they are at the same nominal capability as someone able to form intricate words and hand gestures flawlessly every time.

Everything Martials can do comes down to really good Skills, Time and Other People
Magic removes the time constraints (and often reliance on people) but fundamentally it highlights that the problem with Magic in DnD is that using Magic isnt a Skill - its just a declaration "I cast reality warping spell" and its the target that rolls to resist.

Skills are a tricky thing to judge martials on. People have been comparing the fighter's ability to jump and climb with the wizard's spells, but this is very much a flawed comparison. The Wizard's knowledge of arcane matters and their application is the equivalent of the fighter's athletic ability. Wizards get spells in addition to the same number of skills that the fighter gets.

 

[Tonguez]

Skills are a tricky thing to judge martials on. People have been comparing the fighter's ability to jump and climb with the wizard's spells, but this is very much a flawed comparison. The Wizard's knowledge of arcane matters and their application is the equivalent of the fighter's athletic ability. Wizards get spells in addition to the same number of skills that the fighter gets.

Yeah and thats the problem of Spellcasting NOT being a skill. Everytime a Fighter wants to use their Martial/Athletic ability requires some kind of roll- a ‘skill’ test, but the same condition isnt applied to use of Magic.

 

[Mordhau]

Skills are a tricky thing to judge martials on. People have been comparing the fighter's ability to jump and climb with the wizard's spells, but this is very much a flawed comparison. The Wizard's knowledge of arcane matters and their application is the equivalent of the fighter's athletic ability. Wizards get spells in addition to the same number of skills that the fighter gets.

Also think of it this way. You have a 10ft pit full of acid across a corrider. Five fighters can try and jump the pit. There's a good chance one of them will fail, even if by the odds any one of them will succeed most of the time.

Now five wizards. All of them Misty Step across the pit. It is a resource drain only (which on many days won't really matter). There's no chance any of them can fail to bypass the pit.

Now consider maybe they both can jump the pit. A fighter with 1hp can still only jump the pit. A wizard with 1hp could try to jump or they could decide, given they only have 1hp, to Misty Step instead.

(This is one way spells resemble metacurrencies that all characters can use in other games. In many games if it really matters that I succeed now, then I have a resource to spend to signficantly boost my change of success)

Spells give you the opportunity to just bypass obstacles that other characters simply cannot.

(This I think tells us something about spell design. Spells that allow the whole party to bypass an obstacle are of a different order than spells which alllow a single character to do so. If the wizard can teleport the whole party by a teleport circle, this is overall as much a benefit to the Fighter as it is to the wizard)

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Presumably what the Fighter does to induce their opponents to try to close the gap will depend on what opponents they are fighting. It sounds like something you would have to be an expert in combat stimulus-response to judge the correct inducement, but eminently possible. Particularly when they are at the same nominal capability as someone able to form intricate words and hand gestures flawlessly every time.

Indeed. Having a power that's varied in its description would be better. "You can attract opponents to you, however you want [with a few examples] would suffice. There is also the possibility to use the fact that time and attacks are an abstraction and not a single sword swing. Having the fighter jump forward doing a series of attacks at lightning speed to force other people to move then jumping back in the midst of the fray would fit (and not rely on jedi-mind-tricking opponents).

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Also think of it this way. You have a 10ft pit full of acid across a corrider. Five fighters can try and jump the pit. There's a good chance one of them will fail, even if by the odds any one of them will succeed most of the time.

Now five wizards. All of them Misty Step across the pit. It is a resource drain only (which on many days won't really matter). There's no chance any of them can fail to bypass the pit.

Now consider maybe they both can jump the pit. A fighter with 1hp can still only jump the pit. A wizard with 1hp could try to jump or they could decide, given they only have 1hp, to Misty Step instead.

TBH, I think the scaling offensive cantrips were an error. Caster players don't want to resort to 1d10 crossbow? OK! Have a 1d3 ranged touch attack, pathfinder/3.5e way, and let it be done. You say that Misty Stepping over the pit doesn't matter "on most days". It however seriously limited, in former editions, the ability of the caster to contribute to a subsequent fight... and this balancing, though functional, was problematic, and led to the 5 minutes workday. I guess that scaling offensive cantrips were thought as an answer to the "hey fellow players, I can't contribute anymore, let's call it a day unless you want the next fight to be 3 characters and a deadweight against the BBEG instead of 4 characters...", as the wizard could still be fire-bolting at enemies and generally do a significant contribution through damage. 5e nerfed the utility while introducing something that I guess removed a strong balancing factor that was present in former editions.

 

[Mordhau]

TBH, I think the scaling offensive cantrips were an error. Caster players don't want to resort to 1d10 crossbow? OK! Have a 1d3 ranged touch attack, pathfinder/3.5e way, and let it be done. You say that Misty Stepping over the pit doesn't matter "on most days". It however seriously limited, in former editions, the ability of the caster to contribute to a subsequent fight... and this balancing, though functional, was problematic, and led to the 5 minutes workday. I guess that scaling offensive cantrips were thought as an answer to the "hey fellow players, I can't contribute anymore, let's call it a day unless you want the next fight to be 3 characters and a deadweight against the BBEG instead of 4 characters...", as the wizard could still be fire-bolting at enemies and generally do a significant contribution through damage. 5e nerfed the utility while introducing something that I guess removed a strong balancing factor that was present in former editions.

I think 13th Age handles the Cantrips better. You have to commit a spell slot to have an at-will damage spell.

So if you want the basic firebolt, you spend a level 1 slot for the day but can cast Firebolt as much as you like. If you want the improved extra damage version at level 5 then you commit a level 3 slot.