D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[CleverNickName]

What exactly is the argument about here?

Is any one arguing that the Conan stories do not have some appalling racism in them?

I just don't see why the level of moral culpability of a man who died nearly a century go is really all that important.

He was a popular writer of the time, and his work influenced other writers (for better or for worse). Acknowledging his "moral culpability" is important, because doing so will inform our decisions about, and interpretations of, these derivative works.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Ah, the satanic panic, another boogeyman people use in the hobby to resist change.

I'm pretty sure Volo's is already our Orcs of Thar. I knew it was chock full of terrible takes when it first came out and retconed some of 5e lore to be more expressly xenophobic.

 

[Mordhau]

He was a popular writer of the time, and his work influenced other writers (for better or for worse). Acknowledging his "moral culpability" is important, because doing so will inform our decisions about, and interpretations of, these derivative works.

Wouldn't we be better to focus on the work itself?

In certain contexts it might be useful to know whether Howard's writing was more or less racist than the general attitudes of his time. But if so we really ought to actually establish what that context is first (And the relevance to the broader discussion).

 

[Mirtek]

Ah, the satanic panic, another boogeyman people use in the hobby to resist change.

I'm pretty sure Volo's is already our Orcs of Thar. I knew it was chock full of terrible takes when it first came out and retconed some of 5e lore to be more expressly xenophobic.

And yet the general reception on this boards and in the reviews was nothing but praise. Even from some of the very same reviewers that now praise WotCs face-heel turn and the end of the "always evil orcs" less than 5 years after VGtM.

Which as you noted had WotC take extra effort to emphasize the very things that they are now trying to remove)

 

[Malmuria]

It's very rare to see negative reviews of wotc products. Most reviews come out days after the release, fawn over the art and glossy pages, and stress all the reasons prospective buyers should pick it up. If the reviewers haven't played through the adventure or used the material, what are they reviewing exactly?

 

[Vaalingrade]

And yet the general reception on this boards and in the reviews was nothing but praise. Even from some of the very same reviewers that now praise WotCs face-heel turn and the end of the "always evil orcs" less than 5 years after VGtM.

Which as you noted had WotC take extra effort to emphasize the very things that they are now trying to remove)

Don't even get me started on the immunity to criticism 5e has enjoyed for an unusual amount of time.

I was basically told to shut up on multiple forums about issues in the core design and to super shut up about Volo being xenophobic. For Volos, the vibe made me feel like people were so happy to actually have some new content, they didn't want WotC to get sad and not give them another splat. It was like 'quiet or we won't get fed! It might be gruel, but it's food!'

 

[pemerton]

I actually think there is something to the idea of a new "moral panic" very broadly speaking especially where liberalism is being challenged conceptually.

Liberalism has been challenged conceptually for over 200 years - Reflections on the Revolution in France was published in 1790.

Liberalism has also been challenged practically from time to time - non-controversial examples include Soviet Russia, which existed for nearly 75 years, and China, which has been a non-liberal world power for multiple decades now.

One reason a political orientation can find itself under challenge can be because it is seen to have failed to resolve obvious social problems. Not all such perceptions would constitute "moral panic". Whatever one thinks of the Bolshevik revolution, and the many imitators it inspired, I don't think it makes sense to think of it in terms of "moral panic".

 

[MGibster]

Now, it's not my place to tell someone else what they can and can't do at their own table... but to be frank if it is something you like, (all X are evil), then it just so happens that you like a very stupid thing.

We're all spending time participating in discussions about games with magic, elves, robots, and Godzilla. Every single one of us here likes stupid things including you.

 

[Cadence]

Now, it's not my place to tell someone else what they can and can't do at their own table... but to be frank if it is something you like, (all X are evil), then it just so happens that you like a very stupid thing.

Is there a less ableist word choice to one true way with? (Inane is my current go to).

 

[Hussar]

If it didn't make a difference what the overall society and your local culture looked like, history would be a lot different. I'm not going to compare everyone who grew up being dragged around cowtowns in Texas in the 20's and 30's to the best people of that time and place. If you don't contextualize things, 99% of the human race across most of history seems terrible, and if that's how other people want to see it, that's on them, but I'm not going to forget when people were steeped in expectations that this stuff was okay, especially when they apparently got better about it over time.

But this misses the point. Many times people are given an excuse for this behaviour as if it were somehow justified. And especially works of fiction where we give it a pass because of “it was just the times”.

For example the highest literary award for horror fiction, the World Fantasy Award was a bust of Lovecraft. Think about that for a second and see how bad that is. It wasn’t replaced until 2017!!

It was just the time isn’t a long time ago. Orcs of Thar came out when I was in university. This isn’t “olden days”. This is the years of Apartheid. To say people weren’t aware of the issue at the time is pretty far fetched.

Saying people were aware but didn’t give a naughty word would be FAR more accurate.