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D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

So, here's the problem: The cruelty is part of the point.

Again - they didn't call him "Chief Sitting Drool" because they didn't know is was hurtful. They knew - the point of such "humor" is to be hurtful, to tear down others in order to make yourself look and feel superior.
I am not so sure that what is going on here as far as author intent for the point is to be hurtful to Indians.

The humanoids seem to be in part specifically dumb parody versions of a bunch of in world Mystara cultures. The Atruaghin clans are generally understood to be the fantasy Indians of Mystara, the Red Orcs are the dumb humanoid versions of the Atruaghin. The Ethengar are the Mystaran fantasy Mongols and the Yellow Orcs and Gnollistan and such are generally stupid humanoid versions that mirror the Ethengar. It is not just Indians and Mongols, there are roman style mirrorings and the kobolds mirroring the Mystaran Darokinian Fantasy Italian trader states with their kobold High Doge Constantin Diocletus.

The Atruaghin clans would not have a Chief Sitting Drool, while the dumb humanoid version does.

The author intent could have been to cruelly mock Indians as the point. Or it could have been to mock dumb fantasy orcs. Or both or something else I have not thought of.

Similarly with the art of the orc punks with the spike going through the brain enjoying the breakdancing it could have been to target White British punks and say they are brainless idiots, or the intent could be that orcs are brainless, or to be ambiguous and leave it up to audience interpretation. It could be considered a dig at black urban culture through the breakdancing connection, with the breakdancing being appreciated by brainless idiots, or that can be taken as too attenuated a connection.

Given that in this product itself humanoids are multicultural and generally stupid and all the cultures they have specifically mirror other ones in the world who are not similarly treated in a stupid mocking fashion I find it more likely the intent was to have humanoids be stupid Mad Magazine style parodies of many other things and the humanoids are intended to be considered the stupid and mockable target.
 

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Things don't just become okay because everyone else was a scumbag or cowed by scumbags. Accepting the 'zeitgeist' is how we slide back into scumbaggery.

There's a difference between "things become okay" and "things exist in a context".

If you don't pay attention to how people are raised and what the people around them are doing, you essentially do the moral equivalent of the people who expect everyone to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. You say its just as easy to get to a good place in your attitudes when everything around you is reinforcing a bad one as it is when its doing the opposite, and yeah, I'm not going to follow you there.

(Again, this is not directly about the specific topic of this thread; there's things you can say about the ubiquitousness of racial stereotyping at the time, but the descriptions here show that this would have been pretty gross even by the standards of the day, and we're not required to ignore it.)
 

This is a really good point. I wonder just how much of allegedly "problematic elements" of past RPG products are actually just due to lazy world-building.
It is a simple matter of fact that many people have a certain default response to people of colour, especially Black people. Therefore one shortcut for "lazy worldbuilding" is to trade on that default response.

This doesn't show that such worldbuilding is not racist. In fact it seems to admit the point!

I think this is a valid and important distinction, and may help to diffuse some of the defensiveness a fan of REH's might feel unless, of course, you're suggesting that reading Howard today perpetuates the "functions of subordination," etc.
Of course it can perpetuate that function. Ideologies don't spontaneously emerge in individual's minds. They are generated via social processes, primarily the sharing of certain ideas in certain normatively-shaped ways.

If someone's only, or primary, exposure to Black people was their representation in REH or HPL stories, and if those were presented with an imprimatur of "approval" or normalcy, then that might well contribute to the perpetuation of racist ideology and hence subordination.

This is a complex question of fact. But it might be a reason, for instance, for a public library to catalogue some works under something like a "historical literature" category than, say, a "juvenile fiction" category, on the premise - that even if false as a matter of fact is hard to deny as an organising principle in a democracy - that discerning adults are better able to control their idea formation than impressionable children.

For those who are interested in the project of analyzing authors and artists from the past from a certain contemporary lens of what is and is not problematic, where is the line between an author or work being "blacklisted" and when you can still enjoy them, in spite of the problematic content?

I imagine the line is different for everyone, but that's kind of my question. Where is the line for you?
I haven't used the word "problematic" and given that it can carry various connotations I'm not sure that I want to use it. I will stick to "racist".

I read REH Conan stories, but don't share the general view that Queen of the Black Coast is one of the best. I have told my children that they should only read the stories that I permit them to. I wouldn't want them to be hurt by encountering REH's racism, let alone HPL's references to "mongrels" and the like. I think it was @AbdulAlhazred upthread who said that people don't need this stuff ("microaggressions" is one word for it, though REH and HPL maybe don't fit the "micro" label) in their lives.

JRRT is less horrible at the surface level - but my partner and I did notice that the only people of colour in Peter Jackson's LotR films are baddies. It stands out.
 

I am not so sure that what is going on here as far as author intent for the point is to be hurtful to Indians.

The humanoids seem to be in part specifically dumb parody versions of a bunch of in world Mystara cultures. The Atruaghin clans are generally understood to be the fantasy Indians of Mystara, the Red Orcs are the dumb humanoid versions of the Atruaghin.

<snip>

The Atruaghin clans would not have a Chief Sitting Drool, while the dumb humanoid version does.
As others have posted upthread, including fairly recently upthread (eg Umbran at 1415), Chief Sitting Drool is clearly mocking a prominent Indian personage. That there is a post hoc, in-fiction story that explains where the mocking name comes from is neither here nor there.

The butt of the joke is not the imaginary Orcs. It's the actual personage and the people he was a leader of and is still associated with.
 

So, here's the problem: The cruelty is part of the point.

Again, note there are two conversations going on here; my comment was not about the primary one. It was specifically addressing some particular authors and how they handled things, and is relevant to this thread only to the extent that those authors works informed early D&D heavily. I have no particular reason to think the authors of the specific work at hand warrant any such acknowledgment, and from what others have said, at best, being most charitable they were using the stereotypes in an extremely ill-thought out way to show the substandard nature of the non-human humanoids presence.
 

Now all art of course is a product of its time, and should be understood as such. What were once intended to be anti-racist works in the past may still come across as racist by modern standards. Granted, some things just are terrible even in the context. It is a well known fact that Lovecraft was very racist even for his era, and what's going on in Orcs of Thar really cannot be excused by mere ignorance like perhaps Oriental Adventures could be.

In any case, ultimately that works of the past, especially by long dead creators are problematic is not a big deal in itself. It is completely expected. And people do nothing wrong by merely enjoying such works; though it would be nice if they recognised the problematic elements. However, properly analysing the problematic aspects becomes explicitly important if you adapt or take influence from an old work. Then you should pay attention to not just blindly copy the products of attitudes of the past era. I've been thinking this somewhat due my current setting, which is a primal pulp adventure setting inspired (among other things) by authors such as Howard and Burroughs, works of which contain some rather unfortunate stuff.
 
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As others have posted upthread, including fairly recently upthread (eg Umbran at 1415), Chief Sitting Drool is clearly mocking a prominent Indian personage. That there is a post hoc, in-fiction story that explains where the mocking name comes from is neither here nor there.

The butt of the joke is not the imaginary Orcs. It's the actual personage and the people he was a leader of and is still associated with.
I don't think that's as clear as you make it out to be. The intent could very well have been to mock the orcs and the writer just drew upon a name he knew about without thinking it through. We can't tell for certain based on the name alone that the writer was mocking the real personage.
 

It is a simple matter of fact that many people have a certain default response to people of colour, especially Black people. Therefore one shortcut for "lazy worldbuilding" is to trade on that default response.

This doesn't show that such worldbuilding is not racist. In fact it seems to admit the point!
But I think you need more than that to assign the word "racism." You can't just see yellow and think red (to use my color analogy).

For example, if a world-builder is creating a tropical jungle culture, and the inhabitants happen to be dark-skinned (which makes sense, as they are equatorial), it doesn't automatically mean that they are a stand-in for real world Amazonians or Africans or Papua New Guineans. Or if a tribe of plains warriors rides horses and wears feathers, it doesn't mean the author is "really talking about" Lakota people. But it might mean that they made an association as a starting point, which is understandable.

I think there's also the "kewl" factor. Ed Greenwood presumably included Mulhorand as Egypt because, well, ancient Egypt was really cool. This isn't as much lazy or even convenient as it is saying, "I dig me some ancient Egypt." Now is it then his responsibility to make Mulhorand as accurate to Egypt as possible (and whose version of Egypt? as it was remembered by the Greeks or a modern Afrocentric interpretation or perhaps the indigenous esoterica of Abd'El Hakim Awyan?

Or can Greenwood just take Egypt as his basic inspiration and make of it what he will, for the purpose of a fun setting for D&D?

Of course it can perpetuate that function. Ideologies don't spontaneously emerge in individual's minds. They are generated via social processes, primarily the sharing of certain ideas in certain normatively-shaped ways.

If someone's only, or primary, exposure to Black people was their representation in REH or HPL stories, and if those were presented with an imprimatur of "approval" or normalcy, then that might well contribute to the perpetuation of racist ideology and hence subordination.

Sure, but I can't imagine that this would ever be the case, except for perhaps a brief moment in time. There are (thankfully) far more influences that a young person will encounter over the course of their early lives.
This is a complex question of fact. But it might be a reason, for instance, for a public library to catalogue some works under something like a "historical literature" category than, say, a "juvenile fiction" category, on the premise - that even if false as a matter of fact is hard to deny as an organising principle in a democracy - that discerning adults are better able to control their idea formation than impressionable children.
I personally would prefer this stay to the purview of parents. I just see too much of a slippery slope problem occurring. And of course, different parents have different ideas as to how, or to what degree, their children should be protected. I would also put more emphasis on proving the quality of education so that, even if parents consciously or subconsciously try to perpetuate their own biases (whatever they are), a child will be exposed to a wide range of ideas through their education, and gradually learn to think for themselves.

I haven't used the word "problematic" and given that it can carry various connotations I'm not sure that I want to use it. I will stick to "racist".

I read REH Conan stories, but don't share the general view that Queen of the Black Coast is one of the best. I have told my children that they should only read the stories that I permit them to. I wouldn't want them to be hurt by encountering REH's racism, let alone HPL's references to "mongrels" and the like. I think it was @AbdulAlhazred upthread who said that people don't need this stuff ("microaggressions" is one word for it, though REH and HPL maybe don't fit the "micro" label) in their lives.
On the other hand, these are also potentially valuable learning opportunities. But I hear you, at least for younger children. By the time they get to high school age, I personally think more open attitude is warranted.
JRRT is less horrible at the surface level - but my partner and I did notice that the only people of colour in Peter Jackson's LotR films are baddies. It stands out.
Don't forget that Middle-earth was essentially pre-historic Europe and iirc, orcs were varied in appearance. I don't want to re-litigate Tolkien, but I think some differentiation is needed. To whatever degree racism existed in his work, it was far less than Lovecraft or Howard, and I think "less horrible" overly emphasizes the degree to which racism did exist in his works.

That said, I agree that Jackson probably shouldn't have only or mostly used Maori actors for his orcs.
 

So, here's the problem: The cruelty is part of the point.

Again - they didn't call him "Chief Sitting Drool" because they didn't know is was hurtful. They knew - the point of such "humor" is to be hurtful, to tear down others in order to make yourself look and feel superior.

The difference in zeitgeist isn't that it was okay back then. The difference in the zeitgeist was that a white guy could get away with it without repercussions. Not exactly a moral high ground.

And, by the way, invoking "the zeitgeist" is invoking a majority position. Of course the majority position will excuse the behavior of the majority! If the majority is demonstrably racist, you are invoking racism to defend racism. In essence, you are assuming your conclusion.

Except you're saying that 30+ years after the fact. Times were different.

Anti apartheid was a big thing here along with fears of nuclear war. If social media existed back then those topics would have been bigger than Chief Sitting Drool who probably wouldn't have trended. A particuly bad taste 80's comedy movie might have trended due to its higher profile.
lmao, the argument that "Things were so bad that we couldn't concentrate on this sort of stuff" is utterly hysterical and totally nonsense. We're in the midst of a global pandemic, supply shortages, probably the most unstable geopolitical situation since the fall of the Soviet Union, among a variety of incredibly dangerous domestic political situations. I grew up in the 80's and the 90's, and right now feels like the most dangerous time I've ever lived through and somehow we still manage to pay attention to this stuff.

And this is why people push back on the "it was a different time" argument: there is an argument to be made there, but it takes nuance that is definitely not being used here. Instead, it's basically being used as a heavy-handed bludgeon to try and end any sort of discussion on the manner. "It was a different time, so we don't talk about it" and let's add in some "If you weren't there, you wouldn't understand" in there because Argument from Authority/Personal Experience totally isn't a fallacy when it's about age.

In fact, you basically completely disarm your own argument by bringing up a great example of something no one cared about until they were forced to interact with it: AIDS. For a good portion of the 80's it was basically ignored until it became widespread enough that people actually had to start to interact with people infected with it, through family, friends, coworkers... what happens is that people are brought into contact with these things and suddenly they have a face put to it, so that they can no longer just ignore it and write it off as something that doesn't affect them. You can trace this through a bunch of issues: a good modern version would be police violence, where the proliferation of video cameras has basically brought about a real demand for police reform that wasn't there before because it was abstracted for many people.

And that's what we have here. No one noticed Orcs of Thar is not because of how much was going on, but because it was a niche product in a niche hobby in a time where things wouldn't widely get noticed because we simply weren't as interconnected as we are now. This is not an argument about "colonialist language" or more subtle things, but just blatant offensive racial stereotype stuff. It's the sort of stuff that would have been offensive enough that my grandmother probably would have taken notice and not bought me any more D&D products. It's not because the world of the 1980's were so utterly terrible that no one would possibly notice.

Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not condoning the 80's but that's what it was like eg with AIDs.

There were bigger problems back then people cared about and they got way more attention than Orcs of Thar which was a fairly typical product (cf various 80's movies for example).

Look at other pop culture stuff from the time. Very few outside the scientific community were overly concerned about global warming (although it was picking up steam). Apartheid was still a thing and that was a contemporary high profile issue.

So was the fear of nuclear war both pop culture and wider movements.

Did some people think differently absolutely but its disingenuous to claim they were representative of those times. That's all I'm claiming. Alot of things sucked a lot.
 

I am not so sure that what is going on here as far as author intent for the point is to be hurtful to Indians.

The humanoids seem to be in part specifically dumb parody versions of a bunch of in world Mystara cultures. The Atruaghin clans are generally understood to be the fantasy Indians of Mystara, the Red Orcs are the dumb humanoid versions of the Atruaghin. The Ethengar are the Mystaran fantasy Mongols and the Yellow Orcs and Gnollistan and such are generally stupid humanoid versions that mirror the Ethengar. It is not just Indians and Mongols, there are roman style mirrorings and the kobolds mirroring the Mystaran Darokinian Fantasy Italian trader states with their kobold High Doge Constantin Diocletus.

The Atruaghin clans would not have a Chief Sitting Drool, while the dumb humanoid version does.

The author intent could have been to cruelly mock Indians as the point. Or it could have been to mock dumb fantasy orcs. Or both or something else I have not thought of.

Similarly with the art of the orc punks with the spike going through the brain enjoying the breakdancing it could have been to target White British punks and say they are brainless idiots, or the intent could be that orcs are brainless, or to be ambiguous and leave it up to audience interpretation. It could be considered a dig at black urban culture through the breakdancing connection, with the breakdancing being appreciated by brainless idiots, or that can be taken as too attenuated a connection.

Given that in this product itself humanoids are multicultural and generally stupid and all the cultures they have specifically mirror other ones in the world who are not similarly treated in a stupid mocking fashion I find it more likely the intent was to have humanoids be stupid Mad Magazine style parodies of many other things and the humanoids are intended to be considered the stupid and mockable target.
The zeitgeist of monster design in the late 80s/early 90s of D&D was that orcs were Saturday morning cartoon minions: bumbling, greedy and easily tricked. A lot of product from that era (especially in the Basic line, which was aimed at younger players) tried to make humanoid foes nonthreatening as part of the softening of D&D due to BADD press. It makes sense to have orcs be dumb parodies of thier neighbors rather than have a culture of their own.
 

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