D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Micah Sweet]

And if we want to understand Tolkien, that's great. But, if I want to critique The Lord of the Rings, for example, Tolkien simply doesn't matter. We can examine LotR in the context of the time it was written, but, largely, any interpretation of LotR has to be based in the text itself.

Anecdotes from the writer's life might be interesting, and, they might spark a talking point, but, unless we're actually discussing the author and not the works, the author's life is largely irrelevant to understanding and interpreting a work. Sorry, J. K. Rowling, no you don't get to after the fact declare Dumbledore to be a gay character when there is absolutely nothing in the text to even suggest his sexuality in any direction.

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On the topic of the vitriol regarding Lovelcraft.

One has to remember that Lovecraft was, until very, very recently, given a very prominent place among the authors of the genre. The 5e PHB, published not that long ago, places Lovecraft in the list of inspirational authors alongside Tolkien and other great genre authors. Heck, the term, "Lovecraftian" is used to describe works, completely expunged of any racist meanings. Think about that for a second. You're a writer who Lovecraft would have thought should have been castrated or killed, and your works are being called "Lovecraftian". Additionally, you're a really, really great writer and you win the highest award for Horror out there - the World Fantasy Award - and you are given the bust of a dude that would have thought Hitler didn't go far enough.

And, until very recently, if you complained, you would get reactions like you see in this thread - oh, you have to understand... it was just a product of his time, we don't really think like that anymore... you should be thicker skinned about it... we have bigger issues to worry about... hey, you just won a major award for your work, you should be grateful...

So on and so forth.

So the vitriol we're seeing today isn't really any different than the vitriol you would have seen in any other year. Thing is, instead of being pushed aside, sidelined and ignored, people are actually listening and actually making changes - the bust of Lovecraft is no longer the World Fantasy Award. I will be pretty shocked if Lovecraft's name appears in the newly released 5e PHB under inspirational reading.

The vitriol is largely a reaction to the privileged position Lovecraft enjoyed for nearly a century, simply because he was white and only attacked minorities.

They may take him off the list in 2024, but that won't make him any less an inspiration.

 

[MGibster]

To be honest I can never make up my mind whether the ubiquitiousness of Lovecraft is really due to inherent qualities of the writing, or whether it's just a kind of weird cultural obsession where everyone convinces themselves they love the Cthulhu mythos and find it scary because they think everyone else does.

Most people have no idea who H.P. Lovecraft was. In my experience, people who know who Lovecraft was are usually horror/fantasy fans, gamers, or writers and a lot of them have probably never read one of his stories. But while Lovecraft is largely unknown, the product of his work does appear in the oddest places. The big guy himself, Cthulhu, has appeared more than once on South Park, Yog Sothoth was invoked by Harold in an episode of The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy, the Necronomicon appeared in The Evil Dead, "The Collect Call of Cthulhu" was an episode of The Real Ghostbusters, mythos creatures are alluded to in a few Metallica songs, and referenced by the likes of Stephen King, Terry Pratchett, Neil Gaiman.

I think the ubiquity of Lovecraft's work is because he had a profound influence on many writers. Which is the main reason is strikes me as silly to exclude him from any bibliography in a work that was clearly influenced by him.

 

[CapnZapp]

To be honest I can never make up my mind whether the ubiquitiousness of Lovecraft is really due to inherent qualities of the writing, or whether it's just a kind of weird cultural obsession where everyone convinces themselves they love the Cthulhu mythos and find it scary because they think everyone else does.

Edit: Or in other words, that Lovecraft that features in geek culture these days is more meme than man.

It's because he's free. Gratis. Cheap to use.

Public domain. No need to ask for permission or pay license rights.

 

[MGibster]

And thus the problem. I'll admit to being glib, but, filing Lovecraft alongside those authors is kinda the point.

As seems to happen frequently, I'm missing the point here.

But, just to ask, do you not have a YA fiction section? Why on earth is Pratchett filed in General Adult Fiction?

I've only read the Discworld series and Good Omens, and neither one of those were juvenile fiction. The Tiffany Aching books, part of Discworld, were specifically written for younger readers though.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

And thus the problem. I'll admit to being glib, but, filing Lovecraft alongside those authors is kinda the point.

But, just to ask, do you not have a YA fiction section? Why on earth is Pratchett filed in General Adult Fiction?

I have never been in a library that carved out "young adult" into a separate section. I have had 8 different primary libraries in my life and I am a freuent user of the libraries in all the states I have lived in.

There is a "teen hangout" section in my current library that has the videogames, a subset of the graphic novels, and the manga.

 

[Zardnaar]

I have never been in a library that carved out "young adult" into a separate section. I have had 8 different primary libraries in my life and I am a freuent user of the libraries in all the states I have lived in.

There is a "teen hangout" section in my current library that has the videogames, a subset of the graphic novels, and the manga.

Had a YA section here. AFAIK they still do. I had to go there to get a Drizzt novel out. That was embarrassing.

 

[MGibster]

One has to remember that Lovecraft was, until very, very recently, given a very prominent place among the authors of the genre.

Until very recently? He's still given a very prominent place among authors of the genre. That doesn't stop just because they stop using his image for an award.

The vitriol is largely a reaction to the privileged position Lovecraft enjoyed for nearly a century, simply because he was white and only attacked minorities.

i.e. We're coming to grips with reconciling the problematic aspects of artists and their work with our modern sensibilities.

 

[MGibster]

All of them?

Probably none of them. Lovecraft would bore the hell out of most teenagers.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

Just to clarify, was Lovecraft the creator of the Cosmic Horror genre, or just the most popularly known author of it?

Either way, I'd say his influence has, if anything, become even more pronounced in the last ten years with lots of references to not just his own work in popular culture but works in the Cosmic Horror genre, such as the movies Annihilation, The Endless, and Underwater. Lovecraft's own specific works and creations are just a small subset of a genre inspired by his ideas of alien, incomprehensible, and unstoppable forces terrorizing human beings.

Junji Ito, a Japanese author of Cosmic Horror manga, has also gone from obscure in the early 2010's to having hardcover releases of his work and related merch in the U.S., and an animated adaptation of his series Uzumaki is in the works. He's also noted Lovecraft as a significant influence on his work and included a watercolor painting of him in a recent artbook.

 

[Mordhau]

Most people have no idea who H.P. Lovecraft was. In my experience, people who know who Lovecraft was are usually horror/fantasy fans, gamers, or writers and a lot of them have probably never read one of his stories. But while Lovecraft is largely unknown, the product of his work does appear in the oddest places. The big guy himself, Cthulhu, has appeared more than once on South Park, Yog Sothoth was invoked by Harold in an episode of The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy, the Necronomicon appeared in The Evil Dead, "The Collect Call of Cthulhu" was an episode of The Real Ghostbusters, mythos creatures are alluded to in a few Metallica songs, and referenced by the likes of Stephen King, Terry Pratchett, Neil Gaiman.

More meme than man.