D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Voadam]

I'm just responding to you because we've been going back and forth. I guess what I'm perplexed by is this entire conversation because it seems to boil down to "Acknowledge that people have done bad stuff" and then nothing else. It seems half trying to teach a moral lesson, and half trying to teach a history lesson.

Sure then.

For me, the big value here is to be aware so you can take it into consideration as you make your own calls.

I bought Orcs of Thar in the BECMI era based on the cover art and the description on the back thinking it would be cool King Conan the Orc barbarian land. I did not think it would be a lot of Mad Magazine racial caricature humor.

I bring up Orcs of Thar and different aspects of it when it seems relevant. I would recommend it for people interested in official BECMI racial classes for humanoids. I would also mention the problematic issues so they are aware of them going in if they choose to buy it.

I am generally fine with aware people saying they want nothing to do with it, or that they are interested in parts of it, or they have no problem with it.

Going in for a cool D&D humanoid nation supplement and getting surprise Chief Sitting Drool or art of a dark skinned big lips woman with a bone racial caricature is something that can be avoided with awareness.

Awareness can also mean changing problematic elements if you want to when you use it.

Others have different views on the appropriate response. Mine I feel is pretty autonomy respecting.

 

[bennet]

Ok - done. Anything else? This is what I don't understand: What do you want me to DO with this knowledge that is not mere self reflection? I am keenly aware of the history of HPLs work, (which right now is sort of a stand in for the module that featured red and yellow orcs).

Do you want me to... stop reading HPL? Do you want me to join some kind organization? Is this just a mode of self improvement?

From the young uns I know, you are expected to spread the word, fund protests, and vote for change. Whatever you do though, will not be enough.

 

[Hussar]

I like authors such as HP Lovecraft and I recognize that they were 'problematic'. But what exactly does that do? Nothing about my recognizing that changes anything.

For you. It does nothing for you. But, then again, you're not the target of the racism, nor are you affected by it directly. For others, your recognition is a validation that they aren't just "complainers and whiners" and various other choice phrases. You don't simply dismiss their point of view with a "if you don't like it, don't read it" bit of advice that I was specifically given on these boards the last time we talked about Lovecraft.

There are more people in the conversation than just you and me.

 

[Filthy Lucre]

For you. It does nothing for you. But, then again, you're not the target of the racism, nor are you affected by it directly. For others, your recognition is a validation that they aren't just "complainers and whiners" and various other choice phrases. You don't simply dismiss their point of view with a "if you don't like it, don't read it" bit of advice that I was specifically given on these boards the last time we talked about Lovecraft.

I can't imagine my sense of self/validity being affected by what other people do or don't do/think or don't think. It is certainly not a virtue to let other people define you.

There are more people in the conversation than just you and me.

I'm confident they can take care of themselves.

 

[Hussar]

As to "What should I do" the answer is simple:

Be aware.

Look at how many people talk about reading Lovecraft for the first time and not recognizing the racism. That's not a surprise. I'll bet, dollars to donuts, that everyone who said that is white. It's easy to not see racism when it's not directly directed at you or your family. I'll be the first to admit, I didn't think of it that way either. Of course I didn't. I saw it as the whole inbreeding thing too.

But, that's the point about being aware. You and I SHOULD recognize the blatant racism as soon as you read it. It's not a secret. It's not hidden. It's right there in plain sight. but, because of many reasons, we don't see it right away.

That's why it's so important to keep hammering away at this and making people aware of it.

No one should read HPL and come away thinking "Hmm, that's a fun, weird story" without also thinking, "Wow, that was incredibly racist."

 

[Hussar]

I can't imagine my sense of self/validity being affected by what other people do or don't do/think or don't think. It is certainly not a virtue to let other people define you.

I'm confident they can take care of themselves.

Again, that's because your sense of self/validity isn't under attack every single day, every single minute. From what's on the television or pop culture, to your teachers and classmates to every single person you meet on the street. All the time. Never stopping.

THAT'S what it's like to live as a minority when people refuse to acknowledge the issues. It means that a black author gets given a bust of Lovecraft as the highest award for a piece of fiction and told that this is meant to honor the writer.

 

[Filthy Lucre]

As to "What should I do" the answer is simple:

Be aware.

Look at how many people talk about reading Lovecraft for the first time and not recognizing the racism. That's not a surprise. I'll bet, dollars to donuts, that everyone who said that is white. It's easy to not see racism when it's not directly directed at you or your family. I'll be the first to admit, I didn't think of it that way either. Of course I didn't. I saw it as the whole inbreeding thing too.

But, that's the point about being aware. You and I SHOULD recognize the blatant racism as soon as you read it. It's not a secret. It's not hidden. It's right there in plain sight. but, because of many reasons, we don't see it right away.

That's why it's so important to keep hammering away at this and making people aware of it.

No one should read HPL and come away thinking "Hmm, that's a fun, weird story" without also thinking, "Wow, that was incredibly racist."

Almost as a rule, I try not to use the word 'should' in any sentence that doesn't also contain the word 'if' later.
The reason for that is, in teaching, reading, and grading papers anytime someone says "should" I demand that they explain "why".

 

[MGibster]

How does knowing that most of the Wonders of the Ancient World like the pyramids were built by slaves and therefore exist by the power of human suffering? You have a complicated conversation with yourself and hopefully don't come to the conclusion it was totally worth it and Pharaoh was just a product of his time so it's okay.

You received a lot of replies in short order regarding who built the pyramids which I think looked like people were piling on you. So my apologies for inadvertently contributing to that. Like you, I spent much of my life believing it was primarily slaves who constructed the pyramids because that's what I was taught. But like many things, scholars have had a different opinion for a while but it's taken quite a bit of time for those ideas to filter to popular culture.

 

[Vaalingrade]

A better question I suppose would be 'how do you feel about chocolate?'

 

[MGibster]

Look at how many people talk about reading Lovecraft for the first time and not recognizing the racism. That's not a surprise. I'll bet, dollars to donuts, that everyone who said that is white. It's easy to not see racism when it's not directly directed at you or your family. I'll be the first to admit, I didn't think of it that way either. Of course I didn't. I saw it as the whole inbreeding thing too.

It's quite easy to see it in Herbert West but not nearly so easy in The Case of Charles Dexter Ward or The Colour Out of Space. It's fairly easy to miss in The Shadows Over Innsmouth.

THAT'S what it's like to live as a minority when people refuse to acknowledge the issues. It means that a black author gets given a bust of Lovecraft as the highest award for a piece of fiction and told that this is meant to honor the writer.

I don't know who has refused to acknowledge the issue. There seems to be near universal agreement that Lovecraft was a racist and it permeates his work. The disagreement seems to be over whether or not it's okay to continue enjoying Lovecraft's work or whether or not his name should be consigned to the dustbin of history. In a way it's a very Lovecraftian situation. In ignorant bliss we can enjoy his stories. But once we understand the truth behind their origins, we enter into a crisis conscience as we see the universe as it is and not how we thought it was.