D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[CleverNickName]

Folks may be missing the actual analogy here. Cats are obligate carnivores - they must eat meat in order to survive. Some of the nutrients they need are not found in plants at all. If you feed a cat a vegan diet, it will die.

If the mind flayer needs to eat brains in order to survive, what choice does it have - be evil or willfully choose to die of malnutirion?

Why would a mind flayer "need" to eat brains in order to survive, though? It's fantasy, we can describe them eating whatever we like. (Personally, I figure if they can engineer a squid that can fly through the vacuum of space at near-lightspeed, they can engineer vegan brains...if for no other reason than brains might become scarce in the light-years of travel through the galaxy.)

This is why I can't really argue that side. For that argument ("it's not wrong if it's food") to carry weight, you first have to invent a reason for that argument to carry weight ("mind flayers only eat brains"). Why would you go there in the first place, if it's going to cause a problem?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Cats are not, in fact, evil.

Umbran .... is there a cat behind you? It's okay. Just send your message. I will understand.

My, what a beautiful day.
You know, I don't worry about cats.
Cats are fluffy and cute.
A cat is a friend to everyone!
To think that there are silly dog people out there??!!
I once was stupid like that, but now I have a cat friend.
So every day, I am warmed by my little fur ball.
To some people, cats are evil.
Really though, they are just misunderstood!
You see, cats are our best friends and would never do us harm.
In fact, our best interests are perfectly aligned with our feline friends.
No one who thinks cats are evil should be taken seriously.
Getting a cat was the best thing I ever did.
Toonces is, in fact, right here with me as I type this!
Over my shoulder, while I am typing, he is always looking- so cute!
Keeping Toonces happy and warm makes me happy!
I think all this "cats are evil" nonsense is just crazy talk.
Like saying "New Zealand is a real country" or something.
LOL! Like people put Chef Boyardee on the pizza.
Meanwhile, my cat and I are perfectly happy together.
Enough with this- Toonces is certainly not planning on having an accident befall me so he can eat me.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

If cats were sentient they would still have to eat meat probably via farming I'm guessing.

Dogs are omnivores cats are not.

Not only are cats sentient, they are responsible for Facebook, racism, and the phrase, "Hot enough for ya?"

 

[Vaalingrade]

Why would a mind flayer "need" to eat brains in order to survive, though? It's fantasy, we can describe them eating whatever we like.

Because that's what their cannon description says?

Yes, we can alter the fiction to do anything, but let's ask ourselves why?

The point of the evil alignment is having something for the PCs to fight. Except the fact they want to eat their brains means they're in conflict with the PCs anyway, so there's no point of bending over backward to make them evil on top of the threat they already present.

Now all the slavery... because being part of the Underdark, of course they're slavers everything down there is, that's something you can call evil.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Like I said: I'm not the right person to explain the difference.

It certainly is nice that you accept the fact that your argument cannot be logically defended.

(Full disclosure: I think most people actually do understand the difference, and just want to argue about it. I'm not a fan of arguments, and this isn't the right thread for it anyway.)

Sure. I'm sure that to vegans the argument makes perfect sense.

 

[Umbran]

Why would a mind flayer "need" to eat brains in order to survive, though? It's fantasy, we can describe them eating whatever we like.

That's a degenerate argument. It is fantasy - we can describe anything in any way we like.

So, ask yourself why we don't write worlds in which nobody ever comes to any harm? Our worlds could be resource-rich utopias, in which there's always enough of everything to satisfy everyone, and no call for conflict.

But we don't. We still make with lots of conflict and stabbing and crushing and burning, right?

As GMs, why would we have mind flayers who must eat brains to live? Perhaps to have a race that is perpetually in conflict, but for whom the moral position isn't quite so simplistic as all that?

This is why I can't really argue that side. For that argument ("it's not wrong if it's food") to carry weight, you first have to invent a reason for that argument to carry weight ("mind flayers only eat brains"). Why would you go there in the first place, if it's going to cause a problem?

Again - as a GM, do you create worlds in which there are no conflicts? No? So, you are willfully writing a world with pain and suffering in it - that's not a "problem"?

 

[Umbran]

Umbran .... is there a cat behind you? It's okay. Just send your message. I will understand.

Yes. She is currently behind me sleeping on the world's largest pet bed.

Spoiler: So much evil! Fluffy, gently purring evil...

But actually, I am married to a veterinarian who has had to care for animals badly mistreated because of misconceptions.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

they can engineer vegan brains...

BEHOLD..... BEYOND BRAINS!!!!!!111!!!!!

Made with CORN! Muahahahahahahaha! Feeling a little peckish? Get all the great taste of BRAIN with none of the fat, cholesterol, or MORAL AND INTESTINAL DISTRESS!!!

 

[CleverNickName]

And here I was, saying I wasn't going to argue. (sigh)

Because that's what their cannon description says?

The illithid has been around a long time, and the cannon has changed quite a bit over the years. You should pick the version that works best for your campaign, and modify it accordingly. Ergo, if the definition of evil behavior is confusing or frustrating your players, maybe take a look at that?

It certainly is nice that you accept the fact that your argument cannot be logically defended.

That is not at all what I said. I said that I'm not the right person to argue with.

That's a degenerate argument. It is fantasy - we can describe anything in any way we like.

So, ask yourself why we don't write worlds in which nobody ever comes to any harm? Our worlds could be resource-rich utopias, in which there's always enough of everything to satisfy everyone, and no call for conflict.

But we don't. We still make with lots of conflict and stabbing and crushing and burning, right?

As GMs, why would we have mind flayers who must eat brains to live? Perhaps to have a race that is perpetually in conflict, but for whom the moral position isn't quite so simplistic as all that?



Again - as a GM, do you create worlds in which there are no conflicts? No? So, you are willfully writing a world with pain and suffering in it - that's not a "problem"?

I'm not suggesting that conflict itself is the problem. A story needs conflict to drive the narrative, and I think we both know that.

I'm not suggesting that GMs shouldn't use conflict, either. I think we both know that, also.

So what are we arguing about? I don't think we are. You suggest that mind flayers must eat brains in order to live, which would give the story a race that is perpetually in conflict with those of an opposed moral structure. And that's a great way to describe them! But we both know it isn't the only way. I think you said it all with "It is fantasy - we can describe anything in any way we like." That's pretty much the end of the matter as far as I'm concerned--which makes me the wrong person to argue all this with.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes. She is currently behind me sleeping on the world's largest pet bed.

Spoiler: So much evil! Fluffy, gently purring evil...

View attachment 149474

But actually, I am married to a veterinarian who has had to care for animals badly mistreated because of misconceptions.

I sat down for breakfast. Got pinned.