D&D 5E How to "fix" (or at least help) the fighter/wizard dynamic. (+)

[jmartkdr2]

I want to see the Fighter benefit from Charisma, but then it risks becoming Multi-Ability-Dependent. At the very least, choosing Charisma, Intelligence, or Wisdom as a tertiary ability should be equally good options.

If the Fighter could actually have a Warlord archetype, including a "lazy-lord" build granting actions, as well as a "coach" build granting hitpoints (enhancing alertness, offsetting fatigue, etcetera), these builds might help the whole Fighter class socially as a byproduct.

With a maneuver-based fighter (a battlemaster), you can have int- wis- and cha-based maneuvers easily enough. Or just maneuvers that are keyed to those skills: spend a superiority die, make an int check, and if it succeeds get a bonus to damage against a monster. Skill proficiencies might apply.

 

[Minigiant]

Don't the two go sort of hand-in-hand? Can you give an example?

For instance, in the idea of a Paragon class, I was returning to the jumping ability and a feature I named Mighty Leaps. How might I do it with such a class in mind, and this was my idea (please let me know if this is at all the direction you are thinking!):

Mighty Leaps
Your extraordinary leaps are a sight to behold! You gain a distance you can add to your leaps equal to 20 times your level in this class. When you use your movement to jump, you can add any amount up to this bonus distance. Your bonus distance is reduced by the amount you choose to add. Your bonus distance resets when you finish a short or long rest.

I know the wording is clunky, but for example, if you were 10th level you would have a bonus 200 feet of jumping distance. You could use it all in one jump, requiring you to rest before you could use it again, or break it up as needed, say + 40 feet, then +100 feet, then +60 feet, at which point it would be spent.

You could change the base bonus value from 20 to whatever suited you. I had 50 at first, but thought that might be too much?

ANYONE who fights for a living knows being able to fight is WAAAAAAAAAAAY more important than being stronger or faster.

Your idea is still a be too linear. The way I would do it is flatly have features that progress with tier.

For example the Super Strength powers would be.
At level 1, your carrying capacity doubles.
At level 2, you add 10+level to your long lump and half that to high jump.
At level 4, your unarmed strike is 1d8, you can use larger weapons at now penalty, and all attacks to objects are crit
At level 6, you get proficiency to Str saving throws and advantage if on the ground.
At level 10, your carrying capacity quadruples.
At level 12, you add 50+ double level to your long lump and half that to high jump.
At level 14, your unarmed strike is 1d12 and shoves back level+prof feet,
At level 16 you have double prof to Strength checks and saving throws,, can reroll 1s and 2s, and can throw boulders like a giant

Haven't decided if you choose them off a list, if you must choose between Giant's Strength or Mighty Strength, or if you get a Clumsiness flaw

 

[Faolyn]

No! Stop pigeonholing fighters to narrow set of weapons! They should be masters of all weapons, able to grab any random sword, axe or pointy stick and proceed to massacre foes with it!

Well, I wasn't suggesting limiting them to just those weapons...

Although TBH having a fighter be equally good at all weapons doesn't seem particularly realistic, even in the D&D sense of the word.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Well, I wasn't suggesting limiting them to just those weapons...

That's what giving bonus to limited set of weapons in practice does. Same as with fighting styles. In theory you could use other weapons, but giving up the bonus means that it usually isn't worth it. Instead of being a versatile fighter changing the gear to suit the situation, you are pigeonholed to that one weapon group which your bonuses apply to.

Although TBH having a fighter be equally good at all weapons doesn't seem particularly realistic, even in the D&D sense of the word.

It is definitely realistic enough in a game that lumps climbing and swimming under one skill. Micromanaging weapon specialities seems unnecessarily fiddly. It could be feat stuff for those who really want it, but even then there's a risk that the feats are so good that they're effectively mandatory, and you're pigeonholed again.

 

[DND_Reborn]

ANYONE who fights for a living knows being able to fight is WAAAAAAAAAAAY more important than being stronger or faster.

Sure, I know that, but you're still a martial character so you're going to know how to fight. How is your example showing they can't fight as well as other fighters?? Some of the Super Strength features would have you fighting better than other fighters. So, not only are you Super Strong but you fight just as well...

At level 1, your carrying capacity doubles.
At level 2, you add 10+level to your long lump and half that to high jump.
At level 4, your unarmed strike is 1d8, you can use larger weapons at now penalty, and all attacks to objects are crit
At level 6, you get proficiency to Str saving throws and advantage if on the ground.
At level 10, your carrying capacity quadruples.
At level 12, you add 50+ double level to your long lump and half that to high jump.
At level 14, your unarmed strike is 1d12 and shoves back level+prof feet,
At level 16 you have double prof to Strength checks and saving throws,, can reroll 1s and 2s, and can throw boulders like a giant

Level 1, sure.
Level 2, sure.
Level 4, what are "larger" weapons? Instead of criting all object, maybe you are siege monster?
Level 6, wouldn't you likely begin with STR saves?
Level 10, again, no issue.
Level 12, no issue.
Level 14, ok, shove if failed STR save or automatic?
Level 16, seems close to Indomitable Might, just a different mechanic. No problem with that, just an observation.

This seems pretty tame actually, but again I see nothing that indicates you aren't as good at fighting as other fighters, and with your Super Strength you are better in a few ways.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Micromanaging weapon specialities seems unnecessarily fiddly.

One could make broad categories based on the damage types.
Same with an Armored Specialist features based on the favored armor category.

 

[Staffan]

If you want to increase the fighter's combat oomph relative to the wizard (and other casters), I think a good place to start would be to reduce the time for a short rest back to 4e's 5 minutes.

5e is at least somewhat balanced around the idea that a fighter (particularly a Battlemaster) recharges most of their stuff on a short rest, while a wizard (or other non-warlock caster) needs a long rest. The DMG mentions that a "typical" day should have about two short rests in addition to the long rest, so the fighter's daily contribution is balanced around three Second Winds, three Action Surges, and 12-18 superiority dice per day. The problem is that there are few situations that afford you the ability to take a one-hour break that don't also afford you the chance to call it a day. The only ones I can think of are ones that have a very slowly ticking clock ("We need to do this today, but we don't need to rush it."), and that's hardly a plot device you can use all the time.

But if a short rest takes 5 minutes (or 10 like in Pathfinder 2), that's a lot more doable. That's something you can do after pretty much every fight, and that would significantly buff short rest-based classes like the fighter or warlock.

This wouldn't really help with the shenanigans factor, but a fighter that has 4-6 superiority dice and an action surge available each fight is a lot stronger than one who effectively only has that available per day because of the lack of resting opportunities.

 

[Staffan]

I've seen it mentioned that one of the problems is that your weapon ability is based entirely on your stat + PB, meaning a fighter isn't going to be better than a wizard unless their stat is higher. Sure, it's unlikely that you'll get a wizard with a super-high Strength or Dex, but not impossible.

Perhaps, every X levels (starting at 3rd level, most likely), fighters should get a nonmagical attack bonus to one particular weapon type (e.g., greatswords, shortbows). Maybe a +1, maybe half their PB, maybe go full expertise. You can only use this bonus once per weapon, meaning that at 20th level, the fighter will have specialization in only a handful of weapons.

Or maybe you can use the bonus more than once per weapon: the first time increases your attack bonus, the second time increases your crit range by one.

Generally speaking, the mechanic used in 5e to signify martial skill isn't a higher attack bonus. It is getting more attacks. That's why every fighting-type class gets Extra Attack at 5th level, and why the Valor and Swords bards get it at 6th.

 

[Lanefan]

For example the Super Strength powers would be.
At level 1, your carrying capacity doubles.
At level 2, you add 10+level to your long lump and half that to high jump.
At level 4, your unarmed strike is 1d8, you can use larger weapons at now penalty, and all attacks to objects are crit
At level 6, you get proficiency to Str saving throws and advantage if on the ground.
At level 10, your carrying capacity quadruples.
...

Nitpick: your wording leaves level 10 wide open to two interpretations: does your carry-cap end up at 4x the original or 8x?

If you want 4x the wording should be "... your carrying capacity doubles again.". If you want 8x there needs to be a rider added to make this crystal clear, such as "... capacity quadruples, thus is now 8x the value for a non-Fighter of your strength.".

 

[DND_Reborn]

This wouldn't really help with the shenanigans factor, but a fighter that has 4-6 superiority dice and an action surge available each fight is a lot stronger than one who effectively only has that available per day because of the lack of resting opportunities.

True, it won't help with that, but it is still a good suggestion. I'm not sure if 5 minutes is too short, but 10-15 might be ok. I'll have to discuss it with our group.