D&D (2024) Monsters of the Multiverse: the death of eldritch blast?

[Micah Sweet]

But if you're just throwing in some hobgoblins to fight there's a story reason for it isn't there? If it's just a random battle with hobgoblins what's the point? Unless, like I said, you're playing a dungeon crawl game where the attrition is the point - then the random battles are part of the story. The story of a hardscrabble group of adventurers who are trying to survive a dungeon complex to gather treasure or fight some foe supports random battles and requires attrition as a motivating factor for taking decisions. It may or may not be a very deep story, but dungeon survival is a great collaborative story that D&D supports well.

Once you get outside of that kind of survival story, the D&D attrition model makes a lot less sense to the game. Which is where the arguments about the 5 minute workday come into play - adventurers in a survival story can't have a 5 minute workday, while adventures in other fantasy situations can often easily do so.

Well, the combat system of D&D, despite significant changes over the years, has always been designed to support that story (even 4th ed, in its own way). I'm not sure it's even possible to change it in a way to make attrition less important while still allowing that play style, and if it is, it would feel like a very different game to me. Maybe too different.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That just makes the adventuring day worse because now you're used up character is just plain going to suck for long periods of time. My intention is to get rid of 'long rest' stuff as much as possible.

I prefer to just have fun fights and find character death itself pointless in a game about building and playing a character you enjoy.

See, this is a conflict between character and plot (with worldbuilding trying to get a word in, as usual). Many of us feel that the story that forms out of the game is the goal, and playing a character you enjoy is still important, but secondary to that focus.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Not accepting that there are stakes other than death is a major problem n all mediums nowadays.

Sometimes, the methods and act is more important than the result.

Illustrative point: in the novel series The Wheel of Time (recently made into a TV show on Amazon), one of the issues people have with it, especially as it progresses, is the authors extreme reluctance to allow any character to actually die. It stretches the sense of grounding any story needs, and hurts immersion if you know everyone 's going to make it out no matter what happens.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I agree with this.

While death needs to be a real risk, it can get in the way of deeper stories.

If character death needs to be a real risk, how can it also be "just a dumb thing"?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well, Witch Bolt is just a terrible spell in general. No doubt the warlock’s spell selection at first level sucks, but it gets much better at later levels.

Witch Bolt is my biggest spell dissapointment in the game. I want to feel like Palpatine when I cast it, dammit! Unlimited power my eye!

 

[Vaalingrade]

Illustrative point: in the novel series The Wheel of Time (recently made into a TV show on Amazon), one of the issues people have with it, especially as it progresses, is the authors extreme reluctance to allow any character to actually die. It stretches the sense of grounding any story needs, and hurts immersion if you know everyone 's going to make it out no matter what happens.

Despite the fact that if someone you knew died at the rate the blood-hungry audience demands, they would need all the therapy.

Edit: And the fact that the series is named after a cycle of resurrection.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Despite the fact that if someone you knew died at the rate the blood-hungry audience demands, they would need all the therapy.

It's a matter of degree. It doesn't have to be Game of Thrones.

 

[Remathilis]

Illustrative point: in the novel series The Wheel of Time (recently made into a TV show on Amazon), one of the issues people have with it, especially as it progresses, is the authors extreme reluctance to allow any character to actually die. It stretches the sense of grounding any story needs, and hurts immersion if you know everyone 's going to make it out no matter what happens.

I don't think the price of failure should be death, but I don't think it should be off the table.

Plenty of genre media has heroes that can't die: Superman, Batman, the Doctor, etc. They still have stakes and a sense of loss even if they don't die (or permanently die). But it only works if your PC has something to lose: friends, allies, families, people under their protection, etc. Superman might not be physically challenged by many, but Lois and Metropolis are.

However, D&D isn't that kind of genre media. Thru aren't the defenders of a city, world, or galaxy. Some might be that kind of guardian, but they can be murderhobos with nothing they value except thier lives and their magical toys. Sometimes death is the only price.D&D could use a few more options between glory and death.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I don't think the price of failure should be death, but I don't think it should be off the table.

Plenty of genre media has heroes that can't die: Superman, Batman, the Doctor, etc. They still have stakes and a sense of loss even if they don't die (or permanently die). But it only works if your PC has something to lose: friends, allies, families, people under their protection, etc. Superman might not be physically challenged by many, but Lois and Metropolis are.

However, D&D isn't that kind of genre media. Thru aren't the defenders of a city, world, or galaxy. Some might be that kind of guardian, but they can be murderhobos with nothing they value except thier lives and their magical toys. Sometimes death is the only price.D&D could use a few more options between glory and death.

I agree. I just feel there are more than two options on that scale.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Despite the fact that if someone you knew died at the rate the blood-hungry audience demands, they would need all the therapy.

Edit: And the fact that the series is named after a cycle of resurrection.

In order to resurrect, you have to die first. And everywhere except D&D, there's a little time between those two things.