D&D General D&D isn't a simulation game, so what is???

Why does any of this matter?
Why yes, why does any of this matter? Why nitpick something and mock it with say a derogatory nickname for not being exacting enough?

Imagine how that would feel.
We all have preferences.
And we're all allowed to discuss them and poke at the 'inaccuracies', yeah?
Why get your grundys in a bundle because I happen to have a different preference?
Yes. Why? Get our elder teachers of our archies and our Jugheads in a bundle over people explaining why something is fine for us instead of...
I'm not the one going out of my way to draw a misleading diagram.
..Oh.

Poor Miss Grundy. I guess big Ethel's next.
 

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Any sort of reroll mechanic is 100% against simulation, for example. You are replacing a result with a preferred result - not because it would be a better model, but because you want that result and not the first one. Simulation should never care about what you want.
It can be used to model luck magic, as an alternative to a buff. That's how we used it in RM (I think the effects we used came out of the Spell Users Companion).
 

When I entered gaming I was a pretty solid gamist/simulationist mix, who would have found most dramatist intrusions just that--intrusive. One of the reasons I left D&D was it was only half-serving even half of my needs--as a game it was kind of subpar, and it wasn't doing any kind of real job with simulation at all. I went off to RuneQuest and a lot of games that came out in the 80's that were clearly much more serious about making at least an attempt at some simulationist design.

But over time I've become more interested in a stronger dramatist ethic, and most of the people I play with (and have for a long time) either don't care about simulationism worth mentioning, or do so only to a minor degree. So these days I'm probably gamist/dramatist with a tinge of simulationism.
As I posted upthread, one session of RM was enough for me to buy the boxed set and start a game with what has become my regular group (ship-of-Theseus style - none of the originals is left, as the ones I'm still friends with are in the US).

What I also found was that the greater seriousness of the mechanics also pushed us towards more serious fiction. Which led me, ultimately, away from RM and towards more "story now" approaches. I played 4e D&D regularly for many years because it was a version of D&D that had cleaned up most of its incoherences, and was well-suited to light "story now" RPGing.

But Burning Wheel is my favourite FRPG. It's got all the beauty of a simulationist chassis, with all the pathos of full-on "story now" framing and action resolution. To my mind, it's what RuneQuest aspired to be.
 

EPT - at least in its classic OD&D-ish version - does not strike me as simulationist very much at all. It's kind of like NWP-proficiency era AD&D, but its resolution processes don't model in-fiction causal processes, and thereby determine the fiction, very much at all.
I found this difference in intuitions interesting. I joined EPT as a player for several sessions. RQ was the second RPG I owned, and I GMd it for 3-4 years. Generally, I'm more engaged by what I intuitively think of as simulation of cultures (rather than combat). Thus what fascinated me about EPT was the simulation of the distinct cultures of Tekumel, and in RQ it was Glorantha. Crushes to chest didn't excite me nearly as much as the cults, the glowline, mountainous giants, dream dragons, rune lords and priests, true stone (the spike), Mistress Race trolls and so on.

On reflection, I feel that the above is probably better identified as immersionism rather than simulationism. Taking the latter to want realistic feeling, detailed mechanics and results (where real is grounded in our real world, and the details are those we expect from life).

Simulation is married to gamism in games (more broadly) that aim for the highest possible realism (e.g. Harpoon or Advanced Squad Leader.) Possibly the roots of simulationism are thoroughly entwined with gamism. Albeit as you noted gamism traditionally demands an even playing field and a determined commitment to simulationism would not (presumably, although that could be more an immersionist concern). In any case, I believe there is scope in future for more sophisticated players to set that requirement aside: asymmetrical games, and those of unequally distributed challenge, can be even more gamist.

Simulation needn't get in the way of a premise or dramatic character development. Albeit devising, grasping and upholding complex realistic rules is effortful, and that effort can drag focus onto the simulation over other dimensions. Any really crunchy game seems to risk that. Maybe BW gets around it through encouraging openess, so that participants work through the rules together?

It's the core of purist-for-system (or "process") simulation RPGing, which I think is pretty key to what the OP has in mind (though the OP isn't using that specific terminology).
Simulations are necessarily approximations. Every playable game must pick and choose its subjects. Where we have rules for hawk speed, we might lack rules for hawk reproductive behaviour. Do merlins and condors have the same speed and endurance? In all winds? I don't reall any game mentioned so far realistically treating recuperation and long term disability. Or the psychological trauma resulting from participation in massacres.

My point isn't to say those things must be included, only that if our data model represents fireballs in squares, that choice isn't simulationist in isolation. The test has a large subjective component: do players feel like a fireball exploded realistically around their characters. The rules need to specify the sensations as much as the area and burns. Should it be the same in an enclosed room versus an open field?

For probably a majority of game mechanics, we lack validating data sets to know whether the model and simulation is really predictive of how things would go for the given phenomena in our real world. The question is probably less - is reality reflected accurately? - and more - does the game persuade us that it is reflecting reality accurately? That last might be accountable for ambiguities or conflations between immersionism and simulationism. Often detail is seen as realistic, even though adding fields or dimensions to a model is no guarantee of accuracy and can produce system instability (less granular estimations are often more likely to be right).

How would things go for the given phenomena in our real world? Is that what a simulationist wants that an immersionist doesn't care about? The latter wants to know how things go for the phenomena in the imagined world. Firecubes could be "realistic"in some imagined world. The simulationist wants it grounded in our world: the one we as players live in. (But we don't live in Glorantha, or Tekumel!) On a multitude of details, both are bound to use the same reference point (our world), and both are perforce using approximations and incomplete models. So the test might be better put - does it go how I feel things would go, for some given phenomena that I choose to focus on, in my chosen reference world?
 
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It can be used to model luck magic, as an alternative to a buff. That's how we used it in RM (I think the effects we used came out of the Spell Users Companion).
Luck, definitely. And it can just be another mathematical method for simulating an advantage. The real world contains +5s no more than it contains roll twice and choose highest. (In fact, as we know at the most fundamental level the real world explores every path: much closer to rolling twice than adding +5!)
 

Not--really? They're just how my tastes changed, and were accellerated by the general tastes of the people I game with.

When I entered gaming I was a pretty solid gamist/simulationist mix, who would have found most dramatist intrusions just that--intrusive. One of the reasons I left D&D was it was only half-serving even half of my needs--as a game it was kind of subpar, and it wasn't doing any kind of real job with simulation at all. I went off to RuneQuest and a lot of games that came out in the 80's that were clearly much more serious about making at least an attempt at some simulationist design.

But over time I've become more interested in a stronger dramatist ethic, and most of the people I play with (and have for a long time) either don't care about simulationism worth mentioning, or do so only to a minor degree. So these days I'm probably gamist/dramatist with a tinge of simulationism.

I'm also more willing to tolerate a few games in the D&D sphere than I was for decades, in part because of my diminished simulationist concerns. Note I left that part of the hobby when my tendency toward simulationism was strongest. Because I thought it OD&D was a subpar game and a remarkably poor and underfed simulation. I wouldn't have anything to do with it for, oh, 20 years I want to say? Until D&D 3e came along because at that point it was at least a somewhat engaging (if ultimately broken) game.
This parallels my journey but with clear differences. I was also solid gamist/simulationist though I did not mind dramatist intrusions but I really wanted immersion(realism) and drifted toward MERP, Rolemaster, GURPS and Warhammer initially. I eventually came to the conclusion that MERP/Rolemaster or GURPS all failed in various corner cases, driven in part by my tendency to min/max.

Warhammer I still really like, though not the lore, but it will kill every player over time. Good for a sandbox campaign, I guess but I prefer a more cinematic style.

So eventually I drifted back to D&D via Palladium. That is Palladium to 3e, wargames like Advance Squad Leader also helped me in my journey.
 

Why does any of this matter? We all have preferences. Why get your grundys in a bundle because I happen to have a different preference? I'm not the one going out of my way to draw a misleading diagram.

That isn’t what is happening here Oofta.

No one cares if you like fire balls (the kind that 4e has) vs fire cubes (the kind that no version of D&D has).

The problem is when you arbitrarily map a game artifact exclusively meant to facilitate functional play onto the actual shared imagined space of play…then use that to decry a thing (in this case 4e) citing your incorrect mapping of a game artifact onto the imagined space as an objective truism (rather than a peculiar, and arbitrary…because you don’t do it for dozens and dozens of other game artificacts…autobiographical footnote of Oofta of ENWorld) and therefore a bug of the game engine/design.

And it becomes a million times more fraught when this exact phenomenon and dozens just like it were perniciously weaponized during a many-year period to make the culture of play of D&D utterly insufferable and hostile to newcomers, old heads, and engaged onlookers (in ENWorld’s case, folks who were insightful and interesting commenters who didn’t play D&D but had relevant things to say) alike.
 

Luck, definitely. And it can just be another mathematical method for simulating an advantage. The real world contains +5s no more than it contains roll twice and choose highest. (In fact, as we know at the most fundamental level the real world explores every path: much closer to rolling twice than adding +5!)
@Hussar wasn't just referring to rolling twice, but to choosing to roll twice. As he said, what you want isn't part of a simulation. But it is if you're simulating magical/preternatural luck.

In the case of advantages more generally, roll twice is an alternative to adding a bonus, but it wouldn't depend on anyone's choice.
 

Simulations are necessarily approximations. Every playable game must pick and choose its subjects.

<snip>

For probably a majority of game mechanics, we lack validating data sets to know whether the model and simulation is really predictive of how things would go for the given phenomena in our real world. The question is probably less - is reality reflected accurately? - and more - does the game persuade us that it is reflecting reality accurately?
I think "realism" is a secondary, though not at therefore irrelevant, concern.

The key feature of simulationist mechanics is that they model/express the in-fiction causal processes. Classic Traveller PC gen does this even though it is in some sense rather approximate and/or unrealistic (eg no one ever changes jobs) and does not have anything but a very intuitive set of criteria for accuracy (ie our sense, as RPGers, of what work will be like in the Far Future).

When I ran one of my daughters through a little Traveller session, she complained about the ridiculousness of a "Far Future" in which there is no mobile telephony - only walkie-talkies - and in which people still drive cars (her PC used Mechanical skill to break into and hotwire one). In that sense, she found the setting unrealistic. But she had no issues with understanding the mechanics, and how they related to the fiction.

Contrast Torchbearer, when she asked why using a trait against yourself gives you checks? Ie she had simulationist intuitions, and didn't understand what was happening in the fiction that was being modelled by this process. I explained that nothing was; that it's a gameplay conceit.

I found this difference in intuitions interesting. I joined EPT as a player for several sessions. RQ was the second RPG I owned, and I GMd it for 3-4 years. Generally, I'm more engaged by what I intuitively think of as simulation of cultures (rather than combat).
I don't think that either EPT or RM really simulates a culture. They depict cultures, and their depictions have an intricacy, richness and vividness that contrasts with (eg) Ghost Tower of Inverness or Desert of Desolation.

In this respect I would contrast the Pendragon Winter Phase, which tries to model certain cultural processes (marriage, child birth, estate management) with rolls and modifiers that are supposed to model/express in-fiction causal processes.

On reflection, I feel that the above is probably better identified as immersionism rather than simulationism.
I see it as about the degree of engaging and plausible character of the fiction. To me it is separate from simulationism as a feature of mechanical design, and the way mechanics relate to fiction.

We can see this also by looking at HeroWars/Quest, which is just as steeped in the fiction of Glorantha as RQ is, but is not remotely simulationist in either its PC build or action resolution procedures.

Simulation needn't get in the way of a premise or dramatic character development.
I don't agree with this. I don't think it is an impenetrable barrier; but I don't think it is a hindrance. This is because unless the in-fiction causal processes are Toon-like, there is no guarantee that they will produce drama. And hence mechanics committed to modelling them likewise can't have such a guarantee.

I think it's no coincidence that even a system like BW, with clear simulationist influences on its approach to PC build and to setting obstacles, eschews simulation completely when it comes to framing scenes and establishing the consequences of failure. Conversely, when I was young and hence had not worked out that Classic Traveller could be played in a PbtA style, and instead was applying simulationist sensibilities as much as I could to encounter design, consequences, etc, the result was boring situations and boring play. Probably quite true to the imagined Far Future, which is full of bureaucrats and mortgages and bills of lading, but not very conducive to satisfying play!

EDITED to strike out an errant negation.
 
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When I ran one of my daughters through a little Traveller session, she complained about the ridiculousness of a "Far Future" in which there is no mobile telephony - only walkie-talkies - and in which people still drive cars (her PC used Mechanical skill to break into and hotwire one). In that sense, she found the setting unrealistic.
Traveller always had a "pocket computer" on it's equipment list, which is basically a mobile phone.

I can't say I ever saw any cars in Traveller, air/rafts were pretty ubiquitous.
 

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