D&D 5E Greyhawk: Why We Need Mo' Oerth by 2024

[James Gasik]

It's kind of weird. Given how much we recycle older IP, it would seem almost like brand mismanagement to NOT relaunch Greyhawk for the 50th.

That said, I was going to comment on this from earlier-


This is what is mind-boggling to me. The setting can't succeed? Based on what metrics? At worst, you'd be looking at a Strixhaven or Theros. A setting that sells a few books and doesn't otherwise have a lot of current 5e games within it. At best, it could ride a wave of nostalgia and youtube and twitch videos. Most likely it would be somewhere in-between.

But just remember the initial survey from WoTC when 5e was launched. There were three tiers of settings-
A. Eberron, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Planescape, and the Forgotten Realms.
B. Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and Spelljammer.
("Fairly Steep Drop-Off")
C. Every. Other. Setting.

Now, notice something? We are short three of the classic settings that people want. And one of those ... is Greyhawk. Moreover, there continues to be a lot of support for Greyhawk- from numerous websites that list the canon and the lore, to the quarterly Oerth Journal to multiple wikis to numerous prominent supporters that are also game developers to the multitude of maps (interactive and not) including the excellent work of Anna Meyer ... the list goes on. Greyhawk, despite even being allowed on the DM's Guild, continues to be incredibly well supported through numerous sources.

And I will continue to say that the majority of the pushback that I have seen is not from the oldest fans, nor is it from the youngest 5e fans (the ones that first start playing D&D with 5e), but is instead with ... well, others.

Because one thing I have noticed, over and over again, is that the the kids joining today shouldn't be underestimated. They are amazing. Eventually, they start to ask questions- like ... who is Leomund? Why does Bigby care about a hand? Where did that joke about Vecna's head come from? Why are there now multiple books from Mordenkainen?

The upcoming generation of new D&D players is pretty awesome, and they deserve a Greyhawk of their own. I would love to see what they will do with it.

I think Greyhawk's problem, and why one could say it can't make it, is that there's not enough on the surface to differentiate it from other settings. The gonzo parts of Greyhawk are not immediately apparent. A consumer is going to go "so what's the deal?"

"Well, if you explore and dive into the lore, there's all kinds of cool stuff!"

"Uh, but I already have settings that have their cool stuff front and center. Or that I know better."

Greyhawk is no Eberron, where the gonzo is loud and proud. It hasn't really been in the D&D zeitgeist in some time. You can compare it to Theros or Strixhaven, but those settings exist because they have cross-genre appeal. Magic players are like "oh yeah, wizard school world. kinda sorta Greek mythology world."

What is the attention grabbing thing Greyhawk has? Dragonlance has all these novels and tie ins, dragons and a God war. Ravenloft is creepy and scary! Spelljammer has SPACE! (well, sort of).

Greyhawk has...old stuff that has been stolen for other games, and that only people who played in the 70's and 80's remember. And note, I say this as someone who wants Greyhawk back!

 

[Mannahnin]

I think there's something to it as a more natural home for gritty political conflicts a la GoT than FR is. Lots of squabbling or warring countries and city-states with varied and weird forms of government, as Snarf has noted. Less "The king is a Paladin and so naturally above shady backstabbing or breaking treaties, and the PCs KNOW being on his side is the right choice."

I feel like travel in the Flanaess should be more varied and interesting than I've usually see it be in the FR. More variation in the lands/peoples you travel among. Not to dump on FR by any means, but Oerth seems like a more natural home for a picaresque, say. FR does have a ton of variety in the setting as a whole, but it also has that variety spread across VAST distances. The scale of the Flanaess is a little more reasonable (or could be tweaked to be, if I'm misremembering).

FR also feels more High Fantasy than Swords & Sorcery, IMO, and that's an angle of differentiation that could definitely be played up in a GH reboot. Along with the technology/period feel, where FR is more Renaissance. No firearms in GH, for example. Few or no frilly sleeves or lace, as someone else noted.

I think the big powerful mages pushing Neutrality/Balance is also a good bit different from the Good vs. Evil orientation of other settings. Good and Evil ARE warring, but the self-interested mages and adventurers mostly don't want either to conclusively win, and cause too much destruction or impose too much law and order. You can still have adventurers fighting alongside those mages against evil if evil is powerful and ascending. Greyhawk is more home to mercenary and amoral adventurers, and antiheroes dragged into doing good, where FR is more about Trad good guys on epic quests.

 

[Mort]

I think Greyhawk's problem, and why one could say it can't make it, is that there's not enough on the surface to differentiate it from other settings. The gonzo parts of Greyhawk are not immediately apparent. A consumer is going to go "so what's the deal?"

"Well, if you explore and dive into the lore, there's all kinds of cool stuff!"

"Uh, but I already have settings that have their cool stuff front and center. Or that I know better."

Greyhawk is no Eberron, where the gonzo is loud and proud. It hasn't really been in the D&D zeitgeist in some time. You can compare it to Theros or Strixhaven, but those settings exist because they have cross-genre appeal. Magic players are like "oh yeah, wizard school world. kinda sorta Greek mythology world."

What is the attention grabbing thing Greyhawk has? Dragonlance has all these novels and tie ins, dragons and a God war. Ravenloft is creepy and scary! Spelljammer has SPACE! (well, sort of).

Greyhawk has...old stuff that has been stolen for other games, and that only people who played in the 70's and 80's remember. And note, I say this as someone who wants Greyhawk back!

A good portion of the spells, quite a few magic items and MOST of the artifacts in the core game have Greyhawk names attached to them.

Mordenkainen has shown up in at least 2 published 5e modules already (Curse of Strahd and Descent into Avernus).

WoTC could sell a Greyhawk supplement on nostalgia and name recognition alone. Then people could look deeper inside. And if they then actually made it good? That could REALLY take off.

 

[James Gasik]

A good portion of the spells, quite a few magic items and MOST of the artifacts in the core game have Greyhawk names attached to them.

Mordenkainen has shown up in at least 2 published 5e modules already (Curse of Strahd and Decent into Avernus).

WoTC could sell a Greyhawk supplement on nostalgia and name recognition alone. Then people could look deeper inside. And if they then actually made it good? That could REALLY take off.

I hope that's enough. But it really feels like they'd have to do something big to get the majority of the fan base interested. Like how about making a good D&D movie set in Greyhawk?

 

[Mort]

I hope that's enough. But it really feels like they'd have to do something big to get the majority of the fan base interested. Like how about making a good D&D movie set in Greyhawk?

From what I've seen - WoTC is going all in on the Forgotten Realms for the media content.

 

[Vaalingrade]

But really, aside from historical curiosity and names, what am I getting excited for and hoping to show up on the early previews for this hypothetical product?

Like, Ravenloft's domains and dreadlords, Spelljammer's sapce hyjinx, Dark Sun's psionics and desert sadness, Eberron's being The Good One, or FR's... whatever it is that makes people care about FR?

What's the big cool thing. Explain it to me as someone who saw those names in 3e... and changed them to fit my setting without a single thought or care except to curse Mordy for creating his legendary Ruin Game spell.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Greyhawk has...old stuff that has been stolen for other games, and that only people who played in the 70's and 80's remember. And note, I say this as someone who wants Greyhawk back!

A few things-
There are a LOT of people who played it in the 90s and 00s. That's why I try to be inclusive- while I prefer the barebones Folio/Box set, there was some excellent stuff in the 90s and 00s that some people fell in love with.

In addition, as I just noted, there are still a LOT of people that continue to pump out Greyhawk material. There aren't many campaign settings that have regular periodicals and competing wikis and lore sites.

But to be honest, I try to elide where the opposition tends to come from, because it's usually from people who associate Greyhawk with some sort of reactionary dungeon crawling. Which isn't, at all, what Greyhawk was. It's a fundamental misunderstanding of how truly weird D&D was in the 70s and early 80s.

For me, Greyhawk is D&D before people thought they needed to color within the lines. Greyhawk is D&D your way. It's the multiverse and spaceships, it's ninja nazi monks and demon-possessed emperors, it's endless black ice and dead civilizations blasted by colorless fire. It's a mechanical bejeweled songbird from 2 millenia ago, and an ancient computer designed by a long-ago Baron driven insane. It's a dark god dreaming within a crystalline cyst, and demi-gods raised from the ranks of mere mortal adventurers. It's a land that contains both the heartening free people of the Yeomanry, as well as the infamy of the Vlek, the Stonefist, who acquired power through the slaughter of the Coltens Feodality under cover of negotiation.

But that's me. As I wrote, I look forward to seeing what others do with it.

 

[Shardstone]

Something was bothering me when you mentioned Greyhawk with Grunge punk vibe, but I couldn't place it yesterday.

I remembered this morning. The BBC developed and aired "The Watch" a grunge punk take on Pratchett's Discworld (specifically the watch of Ankh Morpork). Discworld is awesome and the Watch novels (and the characters in them) are one of the things that make it awesome.

The BBC Grungy take on the city watch - not great. It took something that could have been brilliant and made it, at best, average. You have to be careful when changing the aesthetic of something - especially just for the sake of change. Or you'll change what made it good right along with it!

I agree with you completely, and I acknowledge that grunge might not work best for Greyhawk. I'm just interested in seeing what directions Greyhawk COULD be taken.

 

[Shardstone]

But really, aside from historical curiosity and names, what am I getting excited for and hoping to show up on the early previews for this hypothetical product?

Like, Ravenloft's domains and dreadlords, Spelljammer's sapce hyjinx, Dark Sun's psionics and desert sadness, Eberron's being The Good One, or FR's... whatever it is that makes people care about FR?

What's the big cool thing. Explain it to me as someone who saw those names in 3e... and changed them to fit my setting without a single thought or care except to curse Mordy for creating his legendary Ruin Game spell.

When I asked this, I got blocked by Snarff, good luck

 

[Mort]

When I asked this, I got blocked by Snarff, good luck

There have been a number of takes on this, even in this thread. Heck the post right after the one you quoted is just the latest.

Greyhawk incorporates the swords and sorcery of early fantasy science fiction/fantasy in a way that neither the Forgotten Realms nor Eberron (and certainly not Darksun or Dragonlance) do.

And forgetting all of that: FIRST AND STILL BEST is also pretty good elevator pitch, especially because so much of Greyhawk is already in the zeitgeist.