D&D 5E Is 5E Special

This is going to vary by taste and preference as a system take. PF2 is wound very very tightly and the opposite of 5E here. I dislike it very much because every combat is exactly as you think it would be. There is no swing, no unpredictability, its just same ol same ol. Some take comfort in an entirely reliable CR system as such, but as a GM and player, I would take 5E or PF1 any day over it. (You can sort of loosen the tightness a little with the Proficiency Without Level variant, but the base system remains.)
I wasn't really making a value judgement. I like swinginess in my games -- hence why Savage Worlds is a favorite of mine. 5E isn't really moment to moment swingy, though. Instead, it has a billion moving parts that are not individually or collectively balanced, so every possible combination of viable PCs creates a new standard for "balance."
 

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Eh, I’ve built a lot of encounters in both and I strongly disagree. 5e encounters are largely guesswork beyond very basic “is the damage potential on either side so great that it risks oneshot kills?” stuff.

4e you could know what to expect in a fight you’d designed.
4E was about so much more than damage though. Control, and countering or triggering off your opponent's actions, were king. Whether that was a good thing or not, unless you knew exactly what your group could do and how to counteract it without simply nerfing them (like the LFR modules did) there was no way to predict.

I know it’s you least favorite and everything, but encounters really were a science in 4e.
Just for the record, I will state it again. There are aspects of 4E I miss. I miss the way clerics could contribute to combat while also being support on the same turn. That and I have a whole slew of D12s I needed for my high level tempest(?) cleric I no longer need. Heck, I miss aspects of 3.5 like my dual wielding dwarf that could lay waste to everything in his path until he became the guy that carried the wizard's luggage. Had a blast with 2E with my barbarian that took advantage of Skills & Powers to gain a benefit from being brutally honest even when he should have just shut up. I could continue on to even older editions.

But I don't think I'd want to play any of those older editions for more than a one shot or mini campaign. 4E isn't all that special in my hierarchy of what game I want to play. 5E simply works better for me than previous editions.

I really wish they’d kept the best design elements of 4e encounters, but with 5e basic math.

Several things carried over, but yes the group has a lot more freedom and no expectations of things like "you will have a +X weapon by level Y". With more freedom comes more complexity. I think it was the right call, even if there could be improvements.
 

My son has a HUGE nostalgia for 3.5 and PF1, those being the games he started with. Ran them long after they were abandoned.

However he too is now running 5e and isn’t planning on going back.
 


Everything you say here was iterated times and times again, and I can just say: in a game where everyone knows about this, using an optional rest rule solves all those problems.
In groups where people just don't play that way, 5e runs very smooth and is quite balanced.
I have DMed for both groups of people and find 5e better balanced than any edition before that (except for maybe 4e).
"Use this optional rule and it isn't a problem anymore" is a classic Oberoni fallacy: just because the problem can be addressed, even with official optional things, doesn't mean the problem isn't there.

As those problems won't be noticed by the average beginner group, your estimation that 5e is successful despite its mechanics seems very flawed to me.
Considering the designers themselves got caught by surprise with stuff like this (the infamous "Ghoul Surprise"), I think it's much more likely than you give credit for.

Particularly if you have players who aren't making wise tactical decisions because they are still inexperienced. Doubly so if you actually do start the players at 1st level, where the game is so punishingly swingy, a single minor mistake can quickly lead to character death.

This is going to vary by taste and preference as a system take. PF2 is wound very very tightly and the opposite of 5E here. I dislike it very much because every combat is exactly as you think it would be. There is no swing, no unpredictability, its just same ol same ol. Some take comfort in an entirely reliable CR system as such, but as a GM and player, I would take 5E or PF1 any day over it. (You can sort of loosen the tightness a little with the Proficiency Without Level variant, but the base system remains.)
I legit do not understand this statement. At all.

1. If you are a player, how do you know what level the fight is? How do you determine how the combat "should" go? Doesn't the influence of dice, tactics, and terrain usage make a sufficient level of variation? How are you achieving such perfect levels of prediction with so little information?

2. If you are a DM, why are you using identical combats? Are you not providing rich opportunities (to both sides, to be clear) to do tricksy or dangerous things? Are you not using creatures with interesting actions or secondary effects so that even victory itself becomes a complicated affair? Are you including traps, terrain features, and other interact able/dynamic features to leverage (again, for both sides)? Are you making sure to throw some lower-level and highest-level combats at the party, or to have recurring opponents who don't gain levels and thus get weaker relative to the party as they grow?

This is why I legit do not understand these comments. People constantly grouse about "white room theory," but that's exactly what many of those same people use to denounce 4e- and PF2e-like effective and useful balance, while ignoring the techniques the books literally tell you to use in order to produce fun and engaging combats, completely stripping away anything except perfectly lockstep combats on flat, empty terrain. Of course if you do that the combats will be predictable and boring! That would be just as true in 5e under these conditions!
 

4E was about so much more than damage though. Control, and countering or triggering off your opponent's actions, were king. Whether that was a good thing or not, unless you knew exactly what your group could do and how to counteract it without simply nerfing them (like the LFR modules did) there was no way to predict.

My most successful character in 5e was a wizard (bladesinger I guess) that used some wind based control spell. The enemies were stuck and did not do mich damage to us.

That was low level however. In groups I DMed, it started to decline into just dealing damage despite our best efforts. Sadly. I really like low level 4e combats. They were fun as hell. But at higher levels the combat minigame started to take too much of our too short game time, so that we just did not progress in our story.

That is another advantage of 5e. You can fit it easily in a 2 hour session and this was no accident, but a design goal as stated by mearls during the playtest.
 


"Use this optional rule and it isn't a problem anymore" is a classic Oberoni fallacy: just because the problem can be addressed, even with official optional things, doesn't mean the problem isn't there.

Oh yes, the famous macaroni* fallacy.

*Which means that someone thinks, that just because the default rules don't work for you it does not work for anyone. And not noticing the designers acknowledged that by giving optional rules to adress the problem.
 
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Oh yes, the famous macaroni* fallacy.

*Which means that someone thinks, that just because the default rules don't work for you it does not work for anyone. And not noticing the designers acknowledged that by giving optional rules to adress the problem.
Uh...okay. That's not what I said though, so... I'm not sure what your point is.
 

I suppose I wasn't clear because I was trying to be clever: this is a terrible line of discussion and it should probably stop before it gets insulting and acrimonious.
I mean, I don't know if anyone but you sees it that way. I'm not sure it's unreasonable or "terrible" to point out cultural differences among generations so long as you're not writing those generations off. I don't think it's at all wrong to suggest Gen-Xers are, on average, a lot fiercer about gatekeeping IPs of "their" era than Millennials are of theirs (Gen Z remains to be seen). What's next, it's deadly insulting to admit many (most?) Millennials like me really hate and avoid voicemail, particularly receiving it? Neither is some fatal character flaw of the whole generation - it's just that a specific stereotype that on average applies a bit (or a lot) better to one generation than another - there are tons of similar. I'm not sure why this particular one is so enraging. We going to say the heavily tattooed, bearded guy on a skateboard even though he's pretty old and definitely not cool outside his own mind isn't probably Millennial lol? 🤷‍♂️

(The biggest average flaw of Millennial culture for my my money is a characteristic overfondness for "twee" stuff - Gen-X was perhaps too far the other way, with ludicrous cynicism, and tons of so-edgy-you-could-cut-yourself stuff, but neither is great.)
I contend that a lot of that boomer-created cringe in the 80s and 90s is behind much of the GenX-made apologies popular with younger audiences now. Remember, the generation before you -- the one between you and your parents, largely -- makes the art you grow up on.
I mean, you're basically doing what you're telling me not to right here - observing generational differences and trends - the way Gen-X designers created almost "apologies" (your words, I'd say "reactions") to Boomer stuff.

Interestingly with settings the most influential ones for me - the ones I grew up with - are actually Greatest Generation and Boomer rather than Gen-X as you might expect. Zeb Cook, who did Taladas and Planescape is 88, so Greatest Generation, and Ed Greenwood is 63 so a very young Boomer. Troy Denning (Dark Sun) is the same age as Ed.

Outside of D&D though it's more true - for example, Mark Rein*Hagen is 57, so an older Gen-Xer, for example (and certainly Gen-X culturally).
 

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