Parmandur
Book-Friend, he/him
That's ecause most people move on after that much story, not because the system doesn't work. No system would make people who wanted to move on play longer.
D&D 5E Is 5E Special
- Thread starter Reynard
- Start date
Sorry if I'm being slow, but I don't get what you mean. No skill is unique to any class. Arcana isn't just for wizards, and even Stealth and Thieves' Tools aren't just for rogues. So what's different about fighters?
And by the way, what fighters get for skills is great! Perception is the best skill in 5e, and I'd probably nominate Insight as next-best. Most characters need either Athletics or Acrobatics. Fighters have access to all four of those skills, plus a great social skill (Intimidate), a great knowledge skill (History), and a great exploration skill (Survival). What's to complain about there? Fighters can be as good as anyone else outside of combat, and the player has a lot of choice about exactly in what way they're good.
My point is that you can start the story at higher levels. But most tables do not.
I have many campaign ideas that start at levels higher that 7. But like I said, the current zeitgiest is to start at level 1 because the many drivers were newbies, roleplay heavy streamer, and old school grognards.
It's kinda like how people said the PHB ranger was bad because the modern social climate was to play rangers like fighers, rogues, and paladins and not like rangers. So when WOTC gave options that pretty much MOAR DAMGE! and ALPHA STRIKE!, ranger was suddenly fixed.
Parmandur
Book-Friend, he/him
I mean, Level 1 is the first, a very good place to start. Point is, it's not the system failing at higher levels, but players wanting to play at lower levels and restarting at certain points. Which is reflected in official products that cater to customer desires.
I don't mean to negate whatever negative experiences you've had, but I'm running a campaign now that started at level 1 and is now at level 16, and I've never seen the system "flop hard" or not work.
It's not perfect, I admit. The issue of the party having too little to do with their gold has been a problem. If there's a truly serious flaw in 5e, IMHO it's that. I've had to do too much as a DM to fill in that gap that the rules as written left. But even there the game never "flopped", or "didn't work", or anything close to the wording you used. If that's been your experience, I'm so sorry! But that sounds more like a bad DM or bad table than the fault of 5e as a ruleset.
That's my point.
1st is a good place to start but it's not the only one. 5e officially is designed to rush through level 1 and 2.
5e is fortunate that the strongest part of its system (Tier 2) is currently the part of the game the pluarlity of 5e fans finds fun and the weakest parts (Tier 3 & 4) are the parts most 5e fans never get too due to burnout.
Parmandur
Book-Friend, he/him
"Burnout" is a strong word: starting afresh with new characters isn't necessarily burnout, if the story is done.
I guess I must clarify my statement for most to understand.
5e "flops hard" at starting campaigns are Tier 3 or 4 (or late 2). Starting at level 1 and playing to level 16+ gives the players and DM over 10 levels to understand the dynamics and mechanics of the players, the PCs, what they want, and what they can handle.
- Encounter batttle balance in tier 3 & 4 is wonky.
- There isn't many things to spend treasure on.
- The game is designed Treasure neutral but few play that way
- There are few supporting optional rules for Tier 3 & 4 play (followers, strongholds, monster variants, strategic and tactical variants, faction rules)
- Many of the classes have few class features appropriate for Tier 3 & 4 outside of damage dealing (like every non-full caster)
- Most multiclassing and Feat doesn't scale past level 10
- PCs have too many resources in relation to obstacles
- Casters have too many spell slots and mitigation of natural spell slots.
Starting a campaign straight at level 10 as the king of a nation collects the best of the kingdom to quest for artifact to save the continent for an awakening evil from prophesy off Session 1?
Either the campaign is very comedic and not-serious or everyone from players to DM need to be experienced in their classes and and have very very clear ideas of how the campaign would be handled and the configurations of the style and flavor.
A PC can have many stories. My first ever D&D chracter who didn't die and retire had 4 full on campaign stories before walking off into the sunset. The careers of PCs end when the group breaks or chooses to restart.
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Those are all good points, Minigiant. I think my level 16 game has been fine, but I can't deny we've experienced some of those issues, especially the second. Maybe I'm giving 5e too much credit for good high-level play because my main point of comparison is 4e with its preposterous 30 (!) levels. As much as I liked 4e, I thought it went down sharply in quality after the first few levels, and I literally never saw a single game above about level 12, which isn't even halfway to the max. 5e is better than that, at least.
What system did or does high-level play the best? People seem to like BECMI but I have no experience with it at those levels.
What system did or does high-level play the best? People seem to like BECMI but I have no experience with it at those levels.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
I don't know too much about level 10+, but rookie play works more than fine.
