D&D 5E Heat Metal Spell. Unfair to Heavy Armor Wearers?

[GMforPowergamers]

I'm still waiting to find out if fireball is unfair to characters not proficient in Dex saves.

I don't think that it is unfair to anyone not prof... but I think the prof system of saves is unfair.


in 2e (when I started) PHB Ch9 The Saving Throw each class got BETTER at resisting spells but in 5e most classes get worse.

lets take a caster with a 15 in there prime stat... so 8+2+2 for a save so DC 12 (not super good but not super bad)
a character has 6 saves useing the defualt array +2/+1 that gives them lets say 16, 16, 13, 12, 10, and 8 again not perfect but not bad... that next lets put a 16 in a prof save stat and 1 16 in a non prof save stat... but put the 13 in the other prop save stat.. that makes our saves +5 +3 +3 +1 +0 -1

lets advance those two characters to 11th level... and say the one making the saves is a rogue or fighter so 3 stat ups... making it 20 16 14 13 10 8 with prof of +4 and I will give +1 magic to all saves... so +10, +7, +4, +2 +1 +0

over all my saves improved by 5, 4, 1,1 ,1 and 1

now that caster only gets 2 increases... but that can bring them to a 20... lets not give them any magic ups though dc 8+5+4 DC 17 (now that is a good save DC) only 1 save kept pace and the other 5 ALL FELL BEHIND...


so your example of fireball not only needs to be prof but also a stat you are keeping up with the caster to not fall behind.

even prof, with a 13 becoming a 14 and a magic +1 lags 1pt behind between 1st and 11th level.

lets look at 1st-11th level fighters in 2e they start needing to roll above

14

16

15

17

17

now at 11th level need

7

9

8

8

10

an improvment of 7 7 7 9 and 7

even if the wizard gets something (I know there were magic items but I think there were non weapon profs in the dragon mag) that applied a negative they would need it to apply a penalty of 6+ pts and I don't think that was possible,

 

[Voadam]

Are there other spells that give a no save disadvantage on attacks for a continuing duration?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

When I see threads like this one I wonder if people actually have play experience with the spell in 5E, or if they're assuming what it would be like in play because a lot of the arguments I see in threads like this do not match my experiences.

I will in a moment give you our first experence with it

If your caster runs away to make sure they can continue to deal the damage, they're out of the fight. You're diminishing that enemy force by 1 spellcaster. If they stay close enough to be effective, they're often caught up and their concetration can be broken.

yup that is the trade off


so my example... a PC Druid (the first we saw was 3 campaigns into 5e) was one of 3 PCs (we had split a 6 person party...not that it was smart of us) and the group I was with (I was a PC) had the druid and came across 4 knights (not even MM stats, but those+) and my buddy cast it on one, then turned into a bear, and attacked another. Now the heat metal did NOT last the whole fight, it went down on round 3 due to a failed concentration check... but for 3 rounds that knight was taking damage, AND had disadvantage to his attacks... we started the fight assuming we were dead. We ended it slightly hurt and amazed at how well that spell did. SO we looked it up and found wizards could learn it too... not the very next fight but 1 about a level latter was against 2 giant warriors... and our blade singer and our Druid (now all6 of us togather) cast it and stayed back to snipe with cantrips and other damage spells while the other 4 of us engaged creatures now taking multi d8 damage every round that auto had disadvantage to attack us back...

and THAT is why it got moved to MAD along with counter spell, not the first time but once we tried to plan to use it again it became apparant how broken it could be,

 

[GMforPowergamers]

not if that someone or their buddy takes out smith tools and start banging out any accumulated damage plate took over campaign.
Heat makes it pliable and it just might be like brand new after the spell fades out.

or just a cantrip that cleans stuff like Prestidigitation...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

there is a difference between unreal and unbalanced.

right but it is pretty unfair... it's like going hunting from an armored jeep with a high powered snipper rifle... it is no fair to what you hunt

 

[Voadam]

SO we looked it up and found wizards could learn it too... not the very next fight but 1 about a level latter was against 2 giant warriors... and our blade singer and our Druid (now all6 of us togather) cast it and stayed back to snipe with cantrips and other damage spells while the other 4 of us engaged creatures now taking multi d8 damage every round that auto had disadvantage to attack us back...

How? It is on the druid and bard list but not on the wizard one in the PH.

 

[Reynard]

Are there other spells that give a no save disadvantage on attacks for a continuing duration?

It just occurred to me that this spell combo'd with a rogue is bad news for that armored goon. Forcing disadvantage is a good ability, being able to do it without allowing a save is even better, and doing damage all the while is insult to injury.

I am starting to come around to the idea that heat metal might be too good. Why doesn't it have a save, I wonder?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

How? It is on the druid and bard list but not on the wizard one in the PH.

okay maybe i am miss remembering maybe the bard took it and the bladesinger was in melee with me

 

[Voadam]

okay maybe i am miss remembering maybe the bard took it and the bladesinger was in melee with me

Heat metal as a bard spell is new for 5e.

Previously it was always a druid spell, but in 3.5 it was also a sun domain cleric spell.

 

[Voadam]

It just occurred to me that this spell combo'd with a rogue is bad news for that armored goon.

Close. A rogue can use advantage on the rogue's attacks for sneak attacks. The target having disadvantage on their attacks does not itself enable the rogue to sneak attack.

Heat metal gives the target disadvantage on their attacks, not advantage on attacks against the target.