D&D 5E What (if anything) do you find "wrong" with 5E?

[payn]

However, D&D has often given players the impression that they can create any kind of character their heart desires (whether or not it's actually supported), and aren't we discussing what new players expect from D&D, not what they're going to get?

3E is with its open multi-classing and feat bonanza, certainly gave me the idea I could make just about any character concept. I still understood that didnt mean anime, cyberpunk, sci-fi. Some of those themes could bleed into D&D, but D&D is still just sword and sorcery genre stretched it its limits. 4E/5E re-centered that idea big time for me. So, the only understanding I have about these "expectations" is that D&D is just too big and every other game is just simply too small.

 

[James Gasik]

So I decided to take a look at Appendix E in the PHB, "suggested reading". While there are a lot of traditional sword and sorcery books here, there's also some that stand out as being decidedly higher fantasy than others (and even a few excursions outside of the medieval fantasy comfort zone, like The Chronicles of Amber, A Princess of Mars, The World of Tiers, or The High Crusade). I mean, The Wheel of Time is not what I'd call low fantasy!

 

[payn]

Maybe!

I mean.... I loved (LOVED) the Marvel FASERIP system back in the 80s. It was a great system. It was a great game. I had fun playing it. I had fun creating my own superheroes too.

....but it didn't scratch the long-term itch. Despite the serial nature of comic books, it's hard to hook players on playing the same characters with the same powers game after game after game.

There are a lot of very very good systems out there that struggle to match the "campaign" that D&D has - that sense of progression and "leveling."

I think that the IP of Marvel is powerful, but to really take on D&D, a system would have to be able to provide some zero-to-hero or advancement mechanism that keeps people coming back.

I have heard you talk about this level draw before and its really funny to me, because I find it to be a big detractor from the RPG experience. Though, I'm likely an outlier in that I prefer games like Traveller and PbtA style. When I do D&D, I go with like an E8 PF1 game. Though, it certainly is a factor. Along with D20 OGL doing D&D flavor everything for past few decades. It has set this expectation that D&D does it all, when it clearly does not.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I don't think anyone is expecting perfect.

But D&D does hit those core elements of 70s fantasy fiction decently. It just took several editions to harden the mechanics of race and class features.

No, it doesn't.

Have you read "70s" fantasy fiction? Or are you just, you know, assuming? Show me Thomas Covenant or Linden Avery ... let alone an Ur-Vile.

Show me Corwin. Show me a Sid.

Show me a class that can embody all of Conan. Go on. Stat him up for me in 5e perfectly since it's so easy. What, the Barbarian class? The one that depends on RAGE as a mechanic?

You start with a fallacy and don't recognize that D&D doesn't allow you to just copy literature or films ... BECAUSE THEY DON'T FOLLOW EXACT RULES (and usually don't follow "zero to hero").

Also? Raistlin? In addition to the fact that he is from the 1980s, you do know that he was created for Dragonlance, right? He is literally a D&D character.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Oh, well, I didn't foresee that. I mean, I know casters are good, but I didn't think they were quite that good.

in general (and remember my user name) my parties (by level 5+) hit like parties 2-3 levels higher then they are... but by mid to high level (11+) they hit like 5ish levels higher.... I can't count the number of times I have taken a CR 20+ threw some CR 10-12 minions with him and had my 12th level players lock down and shut down the encounter.

 

[Cadence]

I don't think anyone is expecting perfect.

But D&D does hit those core elements of 70s fantasy fiction decently. It just took several editions to harden the mechanics of race and class features.

The request is to hit 90s, 00s, and 10s, and 20s fiction as well as 60s, 70s, and 80s fiction.


What it comes down to is people saying

Legolas Yes
Conan Yes
Raistlin Yes
Aang no
Captian America no
Tanjiro no

If we're picking a target for now, getting to Captain America level doesn't seem that unpopular on here anyway:

D&D General - Poll: How tough should 20th Level Fighters be? (MCU edition)

So, in another thread, the great debate rages between whether the Quadratic Wizard vs. Linear Fighters fault is more Dr. Strange's fault or more Bucky's. Since Strange keeps using his time powers to wipe out attempts to vote about how over-powered he is, lets go to the other side. Where do...

www.enworld.org

 

[James Gasik]

I have heard you talk about this level draw before and its really funny to me, because I find it to be a big detractor from the RPG experience. Though, I'm likely an outlier in that I prefer games like Traveller and PbtA style. When I do D&D, I go with like an E8 PF1 game. Though, it certainly is a factor. Along with D20 OGL doing D&D flavor everything for past few decades. It has set this expectation that D&D does it all, when it clearly does not.

There's a satisfaction that I get from seeing my characters grow and advance over time. I'm sure not everyone has it, but I certainly do, and I'm not alone. Any time someone asks about a new game, I'm in, but if someone says the words "one shot", my enthusiasm dwindles rapidly.

 

[DarkCrisis]

So I decided to take a look at Appendix E in the PHB, "suggested reading". While there are a lot of traditional sword and sorcery books here, there's also some that stand out as being decidedly higher fantasy than others (and even a few excursions outside of the medieval fantasy comfort zone, like The Chronicles of Amber, A Princess of Mars, The World of Tiers, or The High Crusade). I mean, The Wheel of Time is not what I'd call low fantasy!

WoT def is low fantasy. While yes it has dragons (of the non talking kind) and undead and a few other magical creatures etc, it doesn't have roving wizards throwing spells. The magic shown is more ritualistic, which falls right into the low fantasy tier. Not to mention 99% of the population is human. No Orcs or Goblins, or Elves or Gnomes etc etc etc
Edit: I was thinking game of thrones

 

[James Gasik]

in general (and remember my user name) my parties (by level 5+) hit like parties 2-3 levels higher then they are... but by mid to high level (11+) they hit like 5ish levels higher.... I can't count the number of times I have taken a CR 20+ threw some CR 10-12 minions with him and had my 12th level players lock down and shut down the encounter.

Well, I don't know if that's just because they are casters. Playing AL for about a year, I got to 11th level as a Fighter/Rogue, and completed Storm King's Thunder, which concluded with a fight against a CR 23 Kraken...so I think everyone is capable of punching above their weight class to a considerable degree in 5e.

 

[Cadence]

It's not actually per day. It's per "adventuring" day. Whatever that means as it's not really defined. I've just gone to long rests not happening until after the set number of encounters, so it could be 1 day if in a dungeon or 2 weeks if elsewhere. It's not perfect, but it's better than trying to cram a ton of encounters into a short period of time or having too few encounters and letting the party nova on them.

The set number of encounters thing drives me bonker-balls in 13th Age.... but that might just be because they're called days still and sometimes the smart move is to go off an regroup so you can face the big bad ready to Nova. ("Sure, you've been back in your castle for a month, but you haven't had three encounters, so no full recover yet.")

I wonder if something akin to what A5E does (where you need to be somewhere safe to recover) would work. The A5E one grates on me a bit too in its specificity, but I could see not being bothered by something more granual. ("Sure, you could stay in that room until you recover, but with the stale air and monsters banging on the doors and trying to burrow in, it won't be good rest and will take about 4 days....")