D&D General Gen Con, Daisy, Sleeping in the Lobby and All That

[ReshiIRE]

I completely agree that it does not absolve; after all, we arrest people for DUI.

I was more making an observation about the "partying" at conventions, and how it is a risk factor for this type of behavior and how we (as a society) often don't examine this.

I don't have any easy solutions, BTW. If there were easy solution, it wouldn't still be a problem. Maybe just the observation that going to a convention doesn't mean you get to drink yourself to oblivion without regard to the consequences to the people around you. And that conventions should be aware of problematic alcohol consumption.

Agreed totally - includ there are no easy solutions, and that they are likely society level. Individuals must take responsibility for their drinking habits and should not drink to excess in a public space, but that is not going to prevent bad actors.

Education and challenging people is gonna be needed.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Sometimes people really do tell you exactly who they are.

It's a small thing, but I completely stopped supporting Frog God Games after the incident and never bought a single thing from them since. And I was a longtime fan of Necromancer Games.

It's really bothered me for the past few years. I talked with drunk Bill Webb before all this became public, which at least prior to all this happening was mostly his default mode at cons. And, he was just a really gross dude. Gave real scuzzy vibes. I'm not going to go in detail about what he was talking about but it was real weird and gross.

He shouldn't have gotten away with it.

 

[LordEntrails]

Thanks to those of you who chased @SteveC off. /sarcasm
Not appreciated or a valuable contribution. They were actually articulate and caring and had value to add to these discussions. As pointed out by others, your pedantry is not particularly valuable.

How about we try to show respect for others and treat them like we would hope to be treated in-turn.

 

[Deset Gled]

How about we try to show respect for others and treat them like we would hope to be treated in-turn.

I'd like to add this as a very general comment: It's much more productive to focus your frustration at the actual problem, instead of pointing it at people who are supportive but may not be perfectly in sync with you.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I don't think accusing someone of "victim-blaming" for using an accepted term is a petty issue at all. That's .... that's pretty hardcore. So hardcore that the poster was going to leave the thread. YMMV.

OTOH, to move on to a different topic, I can't help but notice that people aren't discussing the issue of alcohol. I know that at work events I attend, I don't see people publicly vomiting and then continuing to drink.

It's a complicated topic, because discussing intoxication might cause some to incorrectly and improperly shift blame to the victim (if the victim was intoxicated) or incorrectly and improperly absolve the perpetrator (if the perpetrator was intoxicated), but harm reduction at these events .... well, alcohol seems to be a recurring issue. IMO.

I think because the alcohol is such a thorny thing to touch with any thoughts towards "what we can do better"

I've heard some people say that we should lower the drinking age, because they see a big part of the problem coming from the mystification of Alcohol. You have to be 21 (an Adult!) to drink, and so many people go on bender's for their 21st birthday, and get ideas like "when adults party, they drink alcohol". These people theorize that lowering the drinking age makes it less about "I am an ADULT!" and so it makes it easier for people to mentally check their relationship with alcohol.

I've heard other people proposing stronger laws about alcohol, and even one person who was looking at restarting prohibition, because nothing good comes from alcohol (personal feelings on that nothing good, since I did have an alcoholic family member)

It is a complex, multi-faceted, deeply nuanced discussion that deals with a lot of different factors. And I think a lot of us instead are defaulting to "adults should know how they act when drunk, and have a healthier relationship with alcohol so they know when to stop drinking"

 

[Sacrosanct]

Coincidentally, I ran across this letter in Dragon Magazine from 1989 about how Gen Con was a horrible organization. Man, I guess some things never change, because I've seen people just like this Bryan guy make the same argument as a reason what happened to Daisy happened.

 

[Gradine]

Thanks to those of you who chased @SteveC off. /sarcasm
Not appreciated or a valuable contribution. They were actually articulate and caring and had value to add to these discussions. As pointed out by others, your pedantry is not particularly valuable.

How about we try to show respect for others and treat them like we would hope to be treated in-turn.

Nah, it was a comment that required responding to. It came across as harmfully reductive. I found their follow-up to be very edifying and absolutely satisfying in explaining their position. But that doesn't change that the original comment was problematic.

Being on the same side should not being an automatic shield for anyone from being called in when they cause actual harm. And there certainly weren't any comments that I saw that crossed any sort of line.

If you want to be helpful and make meaningful progress, especially on this particular issue, you need to be willing to listen to feedback about your words and actions, and take that feedback to heart. If you can't handle being told that your words are upsetting to survivors of sexual violence, you're not in any way in an emotional space to be of more help than harm in these conversations.

And I say that with absolute humility and compassion. It is not easy work. I've been through sexual assault hotline training (to say nothing of having been on the other side of those calls) and it is absolutely not for everyone. No shade whatsoever. But that absolutely includes anyone whose response to being checked on their language is to leave.

 

[Gradine]

I'll add that I somehow missed a whole ass page that got way more acrimonious then I just expected. Apologies for downplaying that above. That said, the pedantry appeared to swing both ways.

At this point, here's what I'll say: this survivor finds the use of the word "embarrassed" to be needlessly reductive and harmful. It triggered me. That, I feel, should have been enough

 

[LordEntrails]

I'll add that I somehow missed a whole ass page that got way more acrimonious then I just expected. Apologies for downplaying that above. That said, the pedantry appeared to swing both ways.

At this point, here's what I'll say: this survivor finds the use of the word "embarrassed" to be needlessly reductive and harmful. It triggered me. That, I feel, should have been enough

That page makes a difference Thanks for following up.

 

[Shiroiken]

I sometimes wonder if having a group of people who are largely in agreement leads to serious arguments over what are essentially petty issues.

You should see US Libertarians. Until this past year, pretty much any gathering would lead us to loudly and vehemently agreeing with each other...