D&D General When (or can) the fiction overrides the DM?

[Baron Opal II]

If the fiction is the greatest driver of the game, does that mean it should overrides the DM. Have you ever wanted to do something as the DM but stopped yourself because of the fiction? But wouldn't you consider that the DM is the highest level source of fiction? I'm not sure what the answer is; what do you all think???

I don't see how the fiction can override the DM; the dice certainly can, and the rules constrain them, but not the fiction. The fiction, as I see it, is a continually evolving state generated from the play.

Now a DM, while ultimately the arbiter of the game world and everything within it, is only the partial author of the fiction. They cannot control what the PCs do, though they can--if they want--control the outcome, or at least guide it in a certain direction.
...
Or to put it another way, the DM is the game world - they decide what exists within it, and also--to a large extent--what and who the PCs interact with. But they aren't the fiction, not alone. The fiction is a co-creation of the DM's world (and choices) and player actions.

I concur.

JMS has 2 great stories from Babylon 5... but the one that I remember best is the death of a character.

The one that stuck with me was the "Vir moment" that he talked about. A significant but secondary character, Vir was the one that came to mind when JMS was writing a murder scene. He had planned to use a different character, but as he was writing Vir "stood up" in his imagination and said "it needs to be me and this is why." And so Vir did the deed.

I haven't really had that moment yet, and I think it is because the characters are the protagonists. My NPCs have desires, drives, and goals, but it is the PCs that develop the "fiction" in a truly active way. I'm definitely "story-after" in that the "story" is what we talk about two weeks later after everything has gone down. I guess that would make the "fiction" the current setting and action as it happens. I'm depending on the players and the dice to provide all the surprises. One surprise I can think of is when the ranger played by the quietest person at the table stood up and moved a branch of the fiction forward by acting in a direct manner, risking himself in a manner somewhat uncharacteristic. He really wanted to talk to the transcendant entity behind the door, and it was played as a character's chance to experience the wonder of it, rather than a "let's throw the lever and see what happens."

I think one big thing here: where does fiction come from? what is a valid source of fiction in a roleplaying game and why? Does the fiction overriding the GM imply that there is some platonic ideal of what the narrative ought to look like, which needs to be course corrected if the mechanics and roleplaying don't emergently produce that narrative? Is it the players idea of what that story looks like, or is it the GMs? If it's the GMs then isn't the GM doing the overriding anyway?

I trained a new DM who had sat in a couple of sessions, took notes, and met me later for coffee. She was having a little trouble fitting the players, characters, NPCs and such in her mind. One thing I mentioned that really clicked for her was "I know excactly what the bad guy is going to do, how long it will take, and how bad it will be if the players do nothing. Then, either like the Fellowship or the Scoobies, the PCs enter and we see what happens." Then, on the stage of the adventure, constrained by the rules and surprised by the dice, we discover what they can do about it, and how.

So, I don't think the fiction can or does override the DM.

Interesting question!

 

[bloodtide]

The thread at large, however, appears to be about situations where the DM wants to do something, but is (hypothetically) prevented from doing so, because doing so would violate the fiction.

The "thread at large" thinks some strange things. Sure, I can see some DMs thinking they "can't" do something because a "fictional something" in their imagination tells them they "can't" do it. Though the whole time, as I said, the DM just does whatever they think.

I tried looking over the thread for a good example: Does anyone have one?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The one that stuck with me was the "Vir moment" that he talked about. A significant but secondary character, Vir was the one that came to mind when JMS was writing a murder scene. He had planned to use a different character, but as he was writing Vir "stood up" in his imagination and said "it needs to be me and this is why." And so Vir did the deed.

that is the 2nd one I was thinking of

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I tried looking over the thread for a good example: Does anyone have one?

here is one from my 3.5 game.

I had a plan for a special reward for a player. It was before we allowed retraining, so this was "The Water of the Warrior" and it forced you to remove any levels that didn't grant a +1 to hit and replace with one that does. It then granted you a bonus to str and a bonus to crits (I don't remember the exact details) but with the idea that this would build to having that player fight the evil warlord that was assembling an orc/goblin warband.

when the party got to the water they found the tribe of orcs they were going to fight... and befriended them instead. Then when they got to the water they had all the warriors drink with the 2 PCs who drank it... When they found out about the warlord a level or two later they went back to the orcs and had them talk to teh others AND make contact with the warlord... who they befriended.

COULD I have forced a fight... sure. Did it make more narrative sense for them to make friends... yes

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

On occasion, we bring up the topic of the "fiction" of the game. On how it should be what drives the game. If the fiction is the greatest driver of the game, does that mean it should overrides the DM. Have you ever wanted to do something as the DM but stopped yourself because of the fiction? But wouldn't you consider that the DM is the highest level source of fiction? I'm not sure what the answer is; what do you all think???

The fiction can't override the DM unless the DM permits themselves to be overridden - but then that's not the DM being overridden, but doing something they CHOOSE to allow. The DM being overridden would be players saying, "You have to do what we say because WE are in charge of the game and not you." The overriding then has nothing to do with the fiction of the game but players actually assuming the role of the DM - and then I have no f'n idea what the hell the DM would actually be there for.

 

[bloodtide]

COULD I have forced a fight... sure. Did it make more narrative sense for them to make friends... yes

I'm not really following your example. You made a Railroad Plot, then you decided to change the plot. You made it, you can change it.

Would not a DM being "overrided" by the fiction be something the DM is "somehow" forced to do that they don't want to do? I can't ever see that happening as it's impossible.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I'm not really following your example.

nope so instead you get insulting...

You made a Railroad Plot,

lol... yeah sure having plans ALWAYs equals railroads... especially when player choices matter and change things (Wait I think that is the reverse of railroad)

then you decided to change the plot. You made it, you can change it.

but the change was do to the fiction created by players

Would not a DM being "overrided" by the fiction be something the DM is "somehow" forced to do that they don't want to do?

no... it is a game (or writing) it isn't forced at all. But when the story changes the way the story flows outside your plans.

I can't ever see that happening as it's impossible.

yes so now take a step back and think... if what you define it as is impossible, and others are talking about it happening, maybe YOU have the wrong idea.

 

[bloodtide]

yes so now take a step back and think... if what you define it as is impossible, and others are talking about it happening, maybe YOU have the wrong idea.

No.

So you made a plot where, at first, you had decided ONE set set of events would occur. Call it what you will, but your plan was to do X. Then, on a whim, you decided to change your plan from X to Y.

So your talking about "overriding" or changing your own self made plot? Ok, and DM can do that on a whim....just like you did.

So where is the overiding the fiction? Your example is just "the DM changed things".

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I tried looking over the thread for a good example: Does anyone have one?

I have given this example in some threads in the past, so I apologize if anyone here considers this a broken record.

Couple years ago now, my players went on a Perilous Journey to investigate some very bad Druids (the "Shadow Druids," ecoterrorists who want to change the arid Tarrakhuna region into a swamp and merge with the process of death and decay so they can "live" outside the cycle of life and death.) In prior adventures, they had learned (due to the Druids being very bad at hiding their paper trail) that the stuff they were trying to bring into the main city to destroy it was coming from a distant northern area, routing through the trade highways to a spot near the headwaters of the major river, and then routing back to the main city. They chose to go to the headwaters first.

Unfortunately, they missed or got partial success on multiple rolls on their Perilous Journey, so things were in a bad state when they arrived...the marsh was on fire. With the help of a strange Druid who could take the shape of a deer made of flame (yet which did not burn the land she walked), they were able to contain the fire and summon a storm to put it out. They then descended into the secret druid site, hidden beneath the marsh, where the Shadow Druids had been.

It was a mess. They realized that some other force (later learned to be the Raven-Shadow assassin cult, which the party knew has a beef with the Shadow Druids) had attacked and intentionally tried to burn out the druids residing there. However it was also clear that the Shadow Druids had been corrupting the place themselves, and the party did what they could to cleanse the corruption, even saving a nest of basilisk eggs from it (not without complications, but still.)

As a sort of "final set piece" for the place, which my players affectionately named the "Charred Marsh Grotto" in imitation of MMO-style dungeons, I had put together something I thought would be really fun and interesting. Trying to stay light on detail, the Shadow Druids practice a horrific form of semi-necromancy where they can bind the soul of a (usually tortured) living person (it doesn't work on the dead) into specially-prepared blood obsidian sand, creating an obedient and dangerous bound spirit that they can use to further their goals. This grotto was used to take obsidian quarried at the other, northern site and turn it into obsidian spirits. The Raven-Shadows, meanwhile, attacked with soul-bound (likely the souls of their assassination targets) "spider-bot" clockwork devices, which used an alchemical fuel to burn the grotto in hopes of destroying the fungal tissue and spores that the Shadow Druids infect the world with. The final chamber they visited was the room where the obsidian spirits were made. However, because of the conflagration and the similarities between the obsidian spirits and the soul-bound clockwork, the intense heat of the fire instead caused the two things to merge into a horrible abomination, a molten obsidian golem with mithril claws and fire attacks.

However...my players got the better of me. See, I had had a pit trap full of water (due to the marsh, right?) in the hallway connecting to this room. So the players asked, very reasonably, "Can we just draw it out here toward the pit trap?"

I was, to put it mildly, a bit crestfallen. They were right. That plan made total sense and shouldn't even require a roll to attempt. For a brief moment, I considered doing something to force the fight, like having the golem refuse to leave its little hidey-hole, but that wouldn't have comported with how I described the thing behaving. So their plan worked. The water partially solidified the golem, and they shattered it with a couple well-timed blows.

The fiction overrode me as DM. I wanted to have that (hopefully) awesome fight. The fiction said that didn't make sense, so it didn't happen. My players were actually very happy, not disappointed, because they appreciated that I had enough respect for their actions to not force things to happen simply because I thought it would be cool.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

No.

uno reverse no on you

So you made a plot where, at first, you had decided ONE set set of events would occur.

I made a game and created enemies and adversaries for my players to face... that is like DM 101

Call it what you will, but your plan was to do X.

again that is called "THE GAME"

Then, on a whim, you decided to change your plan from X to Y.

not on a whim... the players actions change the story

So your talking about "overriding" or changing your own self made plot? Ok, and DM can do that on a whim....just like you did.

I didn't the players did by changing.... the narrative,

So where is the overiding the fiction? Your example is just "the DM changed things".

are you just looking for a fight?