D&D General When (or can) the fiction overrides the DM?

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I guess I don't much understand the point of a power that you can use, but never should use.

Why is it such a big deal to zealously protect a power you would never willingly use?
 

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Never. The DM is the Fiction. The DM is the Alpha and Omega. The DM is all.

A DM that uses the Fiction Shield is simply hiding behind it. They want to be able to say "they" did no do it, "the fiction" did.

It's the Player DM Equivalent of "It's what my character would do".
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Never. The DM is the Fiction. The DM is the Alpha and Omega. The DM is all.

A DM that uses the Fiction Shield is simply hiding behind it. They want to be able to say "they" did no do it, "the fiction" did.

It's the Player DM Equivalent of "It's what my character would do".
I believe that is almost exactly the opposite of what is being discussed.

That is, you are speaking of a situation where the DM wants to do a thing, but thinks it will be poorly received, and thus uses the excuse that they "have" to because it's forced upon them by the fiction.

The thread at large, however, appears to be about situations where the DM wants to do something, but is (hypothetically) prevented from doing so, because doing so would violate the fiction.
 



The-Magic-Sword

Small Ball Archmage
I think one big thing here: where does fiction come from? what is a valid source of fiction in a roleplaying game and why? Does the fiction overriding the GM imply that there is some platonic ideal of what the narrative ought to look like, which needs to be course corrected if the mechanics and roleplaying don't emergently produce that narrative? Is it the players idea of what that story looks like, or is it the GMs? If it's the GMs then isn't the GM doing the overriding anyway?

Personally, I'm of the viewpoint that plot is a red herring, the game is a narratively rich space wherein one experiences "play" rather than a structured stroy that makes demands of its participants, and whatever actually happens should be accepted as the fiction. I think that the world of that fiction might change from the GM's notes as they adjust their own notes during and between sessions, whether because they think an element would be fun to introduce or whatever-- sometimes (though not all the time) a player thinking there might be a secret door somewhere might be something the GM internally says "Good Idea" to and rolls with it.

But you can't do it too often or too transparently because it changes the way the players experience the story in the same way that a writer doesn't experience a story the same way their reader does, like, you can and that's a perfectly acceptable way to play SOMETHING, but you give things up to get there. I see the notion of a fiction that makes demands as a sacred cow in terms of how a roleplaying game is usually played, where authorial control disrupts the fun. But obviously, you can have a storytelling game that is more about direct authorship of a narrative in a collaborative way and that can be fun too.

Because you can have both of these things, you can further have fun things that are on spectrums between them or combine them in some way, and that's where a lot of the experimentation in the medium tends to come from right now-- controlled authorship partially applied to that emergent space.
 

The-Magic-Sword

Small Ball Archmage
In a sense, the entire group is. They are telling a story.

The difference is the players only write the part about what their characters do, while the DM is the author of everything else!
The call and response structure of which, incidentally, produces the particular emergent feel of the game's narrative space-- I can't decide for my players to go and overthrow the king, or explore the lower level of the mountain dungeon, but I can set all those things up. The players can't set those things up, but they can decide what to pursue and how.
 


DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
I was replying to the specific notion that "the DM is all." That's silly.
Sure. I was just quoting you because of how it relates. I agree, although the DM is powerful, etc. without players and a DM, there really isn't much of a game. I know some people do play solo games, however.
 

Reynard

Legend
Sure. I was just quoting you because of how it relates. I agree, although the DM is powerful, etc. without players and a DM, there really isn't much of a game. I know some people do play solo games, however.
Solo play isn't really "no DM" -- the player is both. If you have never seen it, Me Myself and Die (specifically season 2 using ironsworn) is really compelling.
 

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