Critical Role Vital Sacriface questions

[delph]

Hi, I have some questions on this feat:

Spoiler: Vital Sacriface feat description

You've learned secrets of hemocraft that grant you esoteric power at the price of your own life force.
As a bonus action, you can choose to take 1d6 necrotic damage to gain a blood boon. Your blood boon lasts for 1 hour or until expended. You can expend this blood boon to gain one of the following benefits:

• When you make an attack roll, you roll 1d6 and add it to the total.
• When you hit with an attack or spell, you deal an additional 2d6 necrotic damage.
• When you cause a creature to make a Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution saving throw, roll a d4 and reduce their save by the amount rolled.

The damage you take to gain a blood boon can’t be reduced in any way.

second point of feat:

• when casted with AOE spell like fireball - it deal 2d6 to everyone? - IMHO: yes
• when casted to multitarget spell (EB, Magic Missile, Scorching ray)? - IMHO: no but*?
  [*]
  

when casted on single-target spell but twined - IMHO: Really can't say

*It will be really powerful thing. Just imagine what will do it with Magic Missile. Or Eldritch Blast. BUT It cost feat/ASI as Great weapon mastery/Sharpshooter - and there +10 dmg. And this is "only" vs 2d6 (avg 7) and it cost you your HPs (vs -5 to Attack), so you can't do it forever. Cost it Bonus Action GWM no... In battle, you are contested to hold concentration...
There isn't wording like elsewhere "once per turn" or something like that.

 

[Umbran]

second point of feat:

• when casted with AOE spell like fireball - it deal 2d6 to everyone? - IMHO: yes
• when casted to multitarget spell (EB, Magic Missile, Scorching ray)? - IMHO: no but*?
  [*]

You don't "hit" or "miss" with AOE spells, so no, it should not apply to fireball.

If the caster rolls a spell attack, then yes, the boon would apply.
If the target rolls a save, it does not apply.
Magic Missile is a weird one, in that it uses neither an attack roll, nor a save, and I can see arguments either way.

 

[delph]

You don't "hit" or "miss" with AOE spells, so no, it should not apply to fireball.

If the caster rolls a spell attack, then yes, the boon would apply.
If the target rolls a save, it does not apply.
Magic Missile is a weird one, in that it uses neither an attack roll, nor a save, and I can see arguments either way.

And what about multitarget spell - like EB where is Attack, so can be used, but only for first, or all of them?
And what about twined attack? there I can say - I twin spell with all of his effects.

 

[Neonchameleon]

You don't "hit" or "miss" with AOE spells, so no, it should not apply to fireball.

If the caster rolls a spell attack, then yes, the boon would apply.
If the target rolls a save, it does not apply.
Magic Missile is a weird one, in that it uses neither an attack roll, nor a save, and I can see arguments either way.

Agreed other than the Magic Missile wording states "You create three glowing darts of magical force. Each dart hits a creature of your choice..."- it explicitly hits which to me makes it clear. I don't like the "natural language" as implemented in 5e but I think the intent and the effect is clear here.

I'd also point out (on the general topic) that fireball has the saving throw effect.

 

[Umbran]

And what about multitarget spell - like EB where is Attack, so can be used, but only for first, or all of them?

I would think all.

And what about twined attack? there I can say - I twin spell with all of his effects.

Twinned spell says, "...you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell." I read this to say it isn't actually a second, separate spell, it is just addition of a target, and so the boon would affect both.

 

[Umbran]

I'd also point out (on the general topic) that fireball has the saving throw effect.

Yeah. My logic on that is that while we might colloquially say one hits with a fireball, what really happens is that you layout a bunch of indiscriminate fire, and people in the area avoid it or not.

If I pour water on the floor, and someone steps on it and gets wet socks, I don't say I hit them with a pool of water.

 

[Mad_Jack]

And what about multitarget spell - like EB where is Attack, so can be used, but only for first, or all of them?

The blood boon lasts for one hour or until expended...
If you're making multiple attack rolls, one for each target, the effects only apply to one of the rolls - you could choose which one to apply it to, but you could only use it on one of them.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

It seems a bit poorly written. I think what they wanted was "when you hit with a weapon attack or spell attack" rather than "when you hit with an attack or spell", because generally the word "hit" is reserved for attacks in 5e. But it seems like the intent is clearly to do the damage once against one target. A multi-target spell is making multiple attacks, and you can only use it for one of them.

An AoE does not "hit" in 5e D&D. Basically we are talking about spells with an attack roll. Magic Missile probably also counts since it specifically references hitting creatures, is a spell, provided you are only applying the feature to one of the hits it's not unbalancing to permit it, and on a thematic level a magic missile is an attack that simply skips the attack roll because it unerringly hits, even if the technical implementation is not quite that.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

What's the source for this feet? Recent WotC abilities tend to talk about "do damage" rather than "hit" to avoid this kind of ambiguity, and the damage is added to "the dice roll". So the number of times it gets applied is equal to the number of times you roll the dice. For an AoE like fireball, you roll the dice once, and everyone takes equal damage, so all targets receive the bonus damage. Twin, I interpret the same way - both targets take the same damage. Magic Missile is an oddity, but you usually roll damage separately for each missile, so only the first gets the extra damage.

My opinion is this feat is very overpowered. I would rewrite it to require the bonus action activation cost and self damage to be applied for every spell cast with it.

"Feat trees" are not supposed to be a feature of 5e. Gating an ability behind a large number of pre-requisites is not justification for making it excessively powerful.

 

[delph]

What's the source for this feet? Recent WotC abilities tend to talk about "do damage" rather than "hit" to avoid this kind of ambiguity, and the damage is added to "the dice roll". So the number of times it gets applied is equal to the number of times you roll the dice. For an AoE like fireball, you roll the dice once, and everyone takes equal damage, so all targets receive the bonus damage. Twin, I interpret the same way - both targets take the same damage. Magic Missile is an oddity, but you usually roll damage separately for each missile, so only the first gets the extra damage.

My opinion is this feat is very overpowered. I would rewrite it to require the bonus action activation cost and self damage to be applied for every spell cast with it.

"Feat trees" are not supposed to be a feature of 5e. Gating an ability behind a large number of pre-requisites is not justification for making it excessively powerful.

It's Critical Roll Feat.