D&D 5E Martials should just get free feats

[nevin]

The issue that I see in the current version is that feats don't tend to scale well, particularly the utility feats, which are the ones most important to try to make up the difference between martials and casters.
The Skilled or Prodigy feats, which can counter the general tendency for casters to be better at skills than Fighters or Barbarians , for example, can be useful. However in general, nothing that they can do can compete with the ability to teleport across continents, or create useful objects out of thin air.

OneD&D sounds like it might have tiered feat trees, which should help counter this issue, but for the moment, giving martials extra feats is going to get them a little more breadth, but not do a whole lot in terms of raw power at the high end.

This is true most feats don't scale well if you play into High level. Most DM;s I know myself included tend to load up martials with magic items or DM special powers to let them keep up. But I'll say what I've always said. Original game design was to load up martials with magic items so they could compete with the casters. Swapping out feats and abilities works but it's a you say Patatoe I say Potatoe thing. It acomplishes the same thing in roughly the same way.
Your idea works as you said it's just 3.5 resleeved.

 

[nevin]

People do this? I have never heard of it.

sounds like he carefully crafted argument that doesn't even come close to the reality of what most players do. It also ignores the fact that It's not uncommon for casters to be completely taken out of play by antimagic.

 

[Krachek]

In my experience and in my opinion (discounting eldritch knight and Arcane trickster)the fighter can (and often does) deal massive damage and tank multi hits/turns hits into misses. (of course level of optimization matters too)

The barbarian can do both easier and better.

The rouge if built 100% (or atleast 85%) combat can come close enough to the two and in a lucky game may gall between the two.


Hexblades, Sword or Valor Bard, War clerics, any combat ready druid. armor artificers and Bladesinger Wizards if they wish to be melee can be withing level+2 of the hp of the fighter (slightly worse against barbarian but right on with rouges) have teh same to hit ratio, and 70--90% of the damage of a fighter... BUT have a bunch of exploration and socail things the fighter can never have.

The fighter and barbarian can never keep up in social or exploration... a rouge is a big MAYBE.


The worst offenders are the wizard druid and cleric. They can change day to day from "I will out fit myself of exploration, tomorrow for a dungeon crawl, and the day after that for an intrigue at the palace... (honorable metion to teh artificer here, they wont pack the punch but they out strip fighter rouge and barbarian in flexability)



this has lead to us having people say "My concept workss best as a fighter" (sometimes rogue or barbarian or ranger) then making a hexblade or a bladesinger or some multi classed monster and asking "Can I refluff my spells as martial abilities so I can have the fun of the better built class but with the feel and flavor of the one I wanted"

The handling of social and exploration vary greatly for different tables.
Some table put importance in “winning” social and exploration encounter other table don’t.
A social encounter can be done without casting any spells or rolling any skills, same thing for exploration. A party without caster will cross the chasm anyway, it will taker longer, make the story different, but no one’s will be killed. Same thing for social, a party can have nothing to influence social encounter, but will still be hired, save the kingdom and know the plot of the adventure.
To some extent I have seen caster that keep their spell slots for fight only and don’t influence at all exploration or social.

The balance of the classes outside combat is needed when the table ask for results even in the social and exploration phase. If the table use those phase to emphasis on character personality and development then all classes are on the same level.

 

[Mort]

0

What subclass is the fighter? I’ll take a level 13 echo knight against a level 13 blade singer in combat.

Echo Knight is BY FAR the strongest fighter subclass and is one of the few that actually has good out of combat options (such as for exploration). But by 13th level that bladesinger has 7th level spells!

The echo knight better have a good CHA save or he's not getting out of the forcecage! Though the fact that he even could speaks volumes about his utility vs. most other fighters.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

sounds like he carefully crafted argument that doesn't even come close to the reality of what most players do.

really? most players don't pick spells that wil be the best they can find?

It also ignores the fact that It's not uncommon for casters to be completely taken out of play by antimagic.

how often is anti magic in your campaigns? heck what 5e rule do you use for it?

 

[nevin]

most players with the exception of those who know the dungeon they are playing in don't know what spells they'll need. Not uncommon for a caster to run one game where they had one type of spells memorized and wished they'd had more of something else and then run the next one where they changed it and that wasn't what they needed. If the caster knows what he needs every game. FIRE YOUR DM.

At high levels if your not using antimagic more often...FIRE YOUR DM because his bad guys are terminally stupid.

 

[nevin]

And if your trying to play a low magic setting at high level in DND your playing the wrong game.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

What subclass is the fighter? I’ll take a level 13 echo knight against a level 13 blade singer in combat.

Hasn't been specified. Generally people will pick BM if they want to show that Fighters are good in combat because it is very optimisable. I don't know much about Echo Knight.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The handling of social and exploration vary greatly for different tables.
Some table put importance in “winning” social and exploration encounter other table don’t.

100% agree. heck night to night at my games they may be life or death or just us horseing around.

A social encounter can be done without casting any spells or rolling any skills, same thing for exploration.

I have never seen this... can you give an example of something that is an obstacle enough to be considered an encounter but no game machanics were used?

A party without caster will cross the chasm anyway, it will taker longer, make the story different, but no one’s will be killed.

I mean unless the fall. I have seen (mostly at low level) where someone can try to get pas a pit and fall to there death... or sometimes the fall is going to put enough damage on a character that they have to use a resource to heal

Same thing for social, a party can have nothing to influence social encounter, but will still be hired, save the kingdom and know the plot of the adventure.
To some extent I have seen caster that keep their spell slots for fight only and don’t influence at all exploration or social.

yes I have seen that too... but not often. teleport, spider climb, charm, suggestion, and other things all come in too handy.

The balance of the classes outside combat is needed when the table ask for results even in the social and exploration phase. If the table use those phase to emphasis on character personality and development then all classes are on the same level.

except that isn't true... cause the casters have the OPTION to do other but not the non casters

 

[GMforPowergamers]

most players with the exception of those who know the dungeon they are playing in don't know what spells they'll need. Not uncommon for a caster to run one game where they had one type of spells memorized and wished they'd had more of something else and then run the next one where they changed it and that wasn't what they needed. If the caster knows what he needs every game. FIRE YOUR DM.

at no point did I imply or say that the wizard or cleric (or any other prep caster) always has the right spell. thats the thing.

Lets say we have 100 adventureing days...this is spread throguh 5 years of game time and 9 1/2 months of out of game weekly gaming. we will say between 50-60 of those days we KNOW we are needing combat prep.lets say 10 of those days we KNOW we are NOT going to have combat issues (unless we do something dumb see below) that leaves 30-40 days up in the air.
those 50-60 days the fighter needs no help... he can fight... BUT if something comes up (Wait we are going to talk to the kobolds) he MAY still be out of luck... but for the most part he is good... those casters though are golden those days... they prep fireball and acid arrow.
those 10 days the fighter CAN NOT opt out of ccombat things for non combat ones... the cleric and the wizard (any prep caster) can.
those 30-40 days where we don't know... the prep casters can prep half combat 1/4 exploration 1/4 social and still only use slots on ones they want as they come up... the fighter can not, he is ALWAYS combat preped

now sorcerer, bard (Preplaytest), warlock all have spells known... it takes a bit more finess to have options, but you can do it .

DOING SOMETHING STUPID... yes the mage can pick a fight at the queens ball and turn a social situation into a running battle. Yes the bard can try to cast charm on the king and have to deal with the gaurds. Yes in the middle of a town the warlock can eldritch blast a random town folk and thing he is hitting a doppleganger and kill poor old man steve....

At high levels if your not using antimagic more often...FIRE YOUR DM because his bad guys are terminally stupid.

where is this antimagic? counter spells and dispells, behold eye ray... how often do those come up?