D&D (2024) What spells should be dropped?

[Yaarel]

Sounds like you're not a fan of Divinations and Illusions and Enchantments.

The need to revamp the 5e spell list is to ensure that each spell is about as useful and powerful compared to other spells in the same spell slot.

When there is a clear expectation for how much power and usefulness a spell should have at each class level, this is overall good design, especially for high levels to work well as a gaming system.

If some spells in the same slot are much better, it is bad for mechanical gaming balance, and bad for flavor when less powerful spells get ignored during gameplay. Having spells lack balance is generally bad game design.

 

[TheSword]

Balance with a system as complicated as 5e is a fools errand.

Power is relative to the circumstances and will vary wildly between party make up, adventure design and style of play.

Knock is extremely powerful in a party without a rogue. It’s largely redundant or at least only circumstantially useful in a party with a rogue with great lock picking skills.

 

[tetrasodium]

Is this really different than Rogues getting an extra d6 Sneak Attack every off level or Fighters getting Extra Attacks?

Yes I think it is. Rogues are always excited about getting new cool weapons & armor (or hunting for them). Cantrip casters are straight +1/+2/+3 focus with all of the damage range etc baked into the cantrip itself leaving the GM no room to play with those when creating treasure either. It creates secondary problems like regenerating monsters that may as well not waste the ink on regen or how the need for scrolls & wands is dramatically reduced thanks to cantrips. There are only so many magic greatswords & rapiers you can hand out to the rest of the group.

 

[Tonguez]

I don't find true-poly THAT problematic, you can change into strong creatures, but don't include lich due to beyond PC's level (CR21). And once you change, you don't have any ability you used to have, just what is writen on the state block. That this level (17+) to be honest, even cast on fighter, lose access to your ability and all the magic gears is a huge downside.

True Polymorph does however allow a PC to become a Demilich cr 19, then as a demilich it can become a Lich by feeding just one soul to its phylactery.

 

[James Gasik]

Yes I think it is. Rogues are always excited about getting new cool weapons & armor (or hunting for them). Cantrip casters are straight +1/+2/+3 focus with all of the damage range etc baked into the cantrip itself leaving the GM no room to play with those when creating treasure either. It creates secondary problems like regenerating monsters that may as well not waste the ink on regen or how the need for scrolls & wands is dramatically reduced thanks to cantrips. There are only so many magic greatswords & rapiers you can hand out to the rest of the group.

I do miss the way 4e handled implements, where finding an enchanted Orb, Wand, etc. was something a caster could look forward to. As presented in AD&D, the ability to use enchanted weapons and armor was an upside, and those items were intended to be more common than the stuff the Wizard wanted.

Given the fact that WotC wanted to sell people a game where the DM didn't need to worry about giving players magic loot at set intervals, I can't see the upside of stripping cantrips of their scaling and telling the DM it's their job to give casters the damage they are meant to have.

Now if you just want to nerf cantrips or remove them from the game entirely, I think that's an entirely separate discussion.

 

[tetrasodium]

I do miss the way 4e handled implements, where finding an enchanted Orb, Wand, etc. was something a caster could look forward to. As presented in AD&D, the ability to use enchanted weapons and armor was an upside, and those items were intended to be more common than the stuff the Wizard wanted.

Given the fact that WotC wanted to sell people a game where the DM didn't need to worry about giving players magic loot at set intervals, I can't see the upside of stripping cantrips of their scaling and telling the DM it's their job to give casters the damage they are meant to have.

Now if you just want to nerf cantrips or remove them from the game entirely, I think that's an entirely separate discussion.

I'd be perfectly thrilled if instead there was a variant/optional sidebar in the character creation section that told players how to build their characters if cantrips were bound to wands or whatever too . Wotc went too far in stripping away equipment & magic items as a GM tool for providing things like incentive & motivation though. A lot of good could come from dialing that back as the 2e dmg section linked nicely covers.

 

[Tonguez]

Ritual is a great design space.

Many concepts that make bad spells, actually make great rituals.

I want to see 5e develop the ritual design space, separately from spell design space.

For example, any character can attempt to perform a ritual. A ritual can use an Ability Check to perform successfully.

The school of a ritual might correlate with a skill.

School of Ritual (Skill)
• Abjuration (Medicine)
• Conjuration (Arcana)
• Divination (Religion: Celestial or Fey)
• Evocation (Nature)
• Enchantment (Insight)
• Illusion (Deception)
• Necromancy (Religion: Fiend or Shadow)
• Transmutation (Survival: Earth, Plant, or Animal)

The more difficult a ritual, the higher the DC. There might also be a hard character level prerequisite, so certain high-level rituals are unperformable until a character reaches a certain level.

A successful Ability Check means one performed a ritual correctly.

Interestingly, a critical failure during a ritual can mean something goes wrong. This trope of forbidden magic harming inexperienced dabblers is something D&D 5e doesnt explore. But a ritual design place is a great place for these tropes.



A ritual can be anything, for anything, with any kind of requirement to perform successfully. A ritual can be for something routine, like lighting magical streetlamps in a city, or can be obscure like that one time one really needs a Hallucenary Terrain (LOL!).

While some spell effects also have a ritual with a similar effect, spells are not rituals. There can be many rituals that are not spells.

If a spell mentions a corresponding ritual, it can also mention the DC necessary to perform the ritual successfully. Any character can try to perform the ritual, whether a Wizard or a Fighter.

Rituals are a great magic item that DMs can hand out as treasure. The obscure ones can be flavorful. Some rituals might even be useful.
Many things that are currently spells are things a caster will never prepare. But if rituals are separate from spells, then there are many spells that are terrible spells but fantastic rituals.

Oh I do love everything about this idea and have long wanted to implement this kind of two tier magic system - let spellcasters spam cantrips and low tier stuff but make high tier spells dangerous and complex rituals needing time to craft the runic circles, chant the ancient invocations and pour the blood sacrifice (or not)

 

[Scott Christian]

The need to revamp the 5e spell list is to ensure that each spell is about as useful and powerful compared to other spells in the same spell slot.

But why. We all can agree each table runs things their own way. And we can all agree that each player plays a little different from the next. So why then, does the spell list have to "useful" or "powerful" based off one table or player's needs?

 

[Nadan]

True Polymorph does however allow a PC to become a Demilich cr 19, then as a demilich it can become a Lich by feeding just one soul to its phylactery.

They can't, to feed phylactery you have to cast Imprisonment for trap someone in it. But demilich can't cast any spell, nor there would a phylactery suddenly pop out in air let them feed. Acererak and and his disciples can trap soul, but they are CR21.

 

[Cruentus]

Oh I do love everything about this idea and have long wanted to implement this kind of two tier magic system - let spellcasters spam cantrips and low tier stuff but make high tier spells dangerous and complex rituals needing time to craft the runic circles, chant the ancient invocations and pour the blood sacrifice (or not)

Check out Beyond The Wall and Other Adventures by Flatland Games It’s an OSR style rule set that has Cantrips (spammable, but with an ability roll), Spells (reliable), and Rituals. All the really powerful stuff are rituals, but take an hour per ritual level to cast. I’m using this system in my Old School Essentials Advanced game in Greyhawk. I love it.