D&D (2024) 4/26 Playtest: The Fighter

[Eubani]

To the idea that a martial character should not be able to do anything beyond X because it would have to be magic, I salute that idea with all the disrespect that it deserves. How about in a multiverse where Good, Evil and Neutrality are active if not sentient forces could they be what is empowering high level martials to go beyond the norm without magic.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Martials should fulfill a role magic simply cannot fulfill and I think that should be reliability.

DnD spells just work every time and do what they say they do, so... it cannot be reliability.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I do get the point, but I see this argument a lot....this assumption that wizards can just fly around however and whenever they feel like it. And its not quite true.

First, you have to have Fly as a prepared spell. (and fly is a good spell don't get me wrong, but there are a LOT of good 3rd level spells).
Then you have to use a 3rd level slot (which is still pretty rare until you get to double digit levels).
And that fly is by no means safe. If you take any proning effect, or the effect gets dispelled, you basically fall to your death.

At high levels I can see the argument, but a 5th level mage doesn't just fly around at will whenever they feel like it, and certainly not without risks.

Okay, so at what level does the Fighter natively get access to flight?

Sure, Arcane casters only have the option, but they HAVE the option. And flight is incredibly safe outside of combat. In fact, outside of combat not a single thing will go wrong with a wizard/sorcerer/warlock/bard's flight. And if they fall.... they featherfall and survive.

And I want to remind you, in general charop discussions, flight is considered one of the most powerful, broken, and game-changing abilities to gain... and your response to the flight spell is "sure, its good, but you have a LOT of good options"

And most martials... never get anything close to the level of mobility casters can choose to opt into. And they do opt into it, this is why DM's have to come up with counter-measures when they build a massive tower... and the caster just flies to the top and ties off a rope.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yes they are. It is easily twice as much time to resolve an attack and that is if the player knows what they are doing.

Add this in for the monsters (if that happens) and you are looking at large battles taking roughly 3 times the amount of time they take now, and it already too long.

IMO we need a mastery effcts that are set and require no additional rolls at all. That will still take longer, but it will be close.

Like graze? Nick? Push? Sap? Slow? Vex? None of which requires rolls and just auto apply simple effects? The only ones that include additional rolling are Cleave (roll another attack, not complicated) and Topple, which is a save, but again isn't complicated. Roll a DC 14 con save or be prone. Not hard at all.

So, again... no, these are not complicated. At all. Players can handle "I hit him, and now I have advantage to hit him again".

 

[Asisreo]

DnD spells just work every time and do what they say they do, so... it cannot be reliability.

It can be once we actually get rid of the few spells that "just work."

Its important to remember that drawbacks can be added to spells to keep them balanced and quite a few have them already, but not quite enough.

There was a time where casting was more difficult and punishing but WoTC removed that in lieu of simplicity but left a huge balance hole in its wake.

 

[Chaosmancer]

All of those things are reasonable and aren't really on the edge of magic except the +3 magic weapon fighter.

That's the one? The one that is literally "get a +3 to attacks and damage" is the one you think is the edge of magic?

What I'm saying isn't that martials can't have cool things. I never said that, but they shouldn't just be magic by another name and we all close our eyes and pretend its not magic. Automatic success on stealing or being immune to grappling isn't magic but there's no way for a DM creating an adventure to not drag immersion through the mud as soon as the fighter players asks how exactly did the rogue steal the enemy's memories.

Because they are that good of a thief. Seriously, it isn't hard. Stories have been doing this millenia. And frankly, immersion can go die in a hole. Because immersion is what keeps martials locked down and "normal" while we let casters get away with anything. I'm frankly sick and tired of immersion and realism. That's for levels below level 15, after that you are a multiversal force, you should at least be capable of breaking simple human limitations.

"It's magic" isn't really an explanation for how you can alter reality on a whim without tearing things apart, it just shuts down the conversation. "They are just that good" also shuts down the conversation in the exact same manner.

Martials should fulfill a role magic simply cannot fulfill and I think that should be reliability.

And unless you mean "reliably succeed without rolling a die" then you are falling for the same trap we are always dragged into. Martials have limited hp, they have party members who have even less hp. And no one wants to run a 12 combat adventuring day. So this idea that martials are balanced because they can just keep going is FALSE. It is wrong. It never happens. They don't get to fight number 9, fight number 10, or fight number 23 to show how much cooler they are, because once they have taken some damage, and the wizard has taken some damage, and the wizard is out of encounter ending abilities.... they stop. Because they can't afford the risk of continuing or the wizard might die.

And even outside of fights. It doesn't matter if you can roll persuasion all day long, you get one shot at convincing the person you are trying to convince. Martials roll straight. Casters use magic to guarantee success. And sure the casters can only guarantee success so many times... but practically that ends up being most of the time, and then they are also rolling persuasion, just like the martials.

This ideal simply fails in the face of the practical considerations of how the game runs.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It can be once we actually get rid of the few spells that "just work."

You mean.... all of them? There isn't a single spell that doesn't "just work"

Its important to remember that drawbacks can be added to spells to keep them balanced and quite a few have them already, but not quite enough.

There was a time where casting was more difficult and punishing but WoTC removed that in lieu of simplicity but left a huge balance hole in its wake.

But here's the thing. There is a reason that WoTC got rid of those things... they sucked! No one liked them. Those that did, kept playing those editions.

And we don't need to nerf the casters, we CAN. BUFF. THE. MARTIALS! It is allowed. Perfectly legal. Not a crime.

 

[Stalker0]

Okay, so at what level does the Fighter natively get access to flight?

You misunderstand my point.

I am not arguing that martials are balanced, I agree with your general point. I just disagree with your specific example. Flight on occasion is not the same as "all fly all the time" which people often use as arguments in these kinds of debates, and that is not accurate.

There are plenty of other examples of casters upping martials that I agree with, its just this particular example I do not.

 

[ECMO3]

Like graze? Nick? Push? Sap? Slow? Vex? None of which requires rolls and just auto apply simple effects?

Nick does require an extra roll. The others you mention here don't. More to the point they are not simple, especially when a weapon has two masterys and you need to decide which to apply.

The only ones that include additional rolling are Cleave (roll another attack, not complicated) and Topple, which is a save, but again isn't complicated. Roll a DC 14 con save or be prone. Not hard at all.

Except that is literally twice as many rolls on a character 1st to 4th level, and that is before you consider things like Silvery Barbs, Lucky Feats, inspiration etc.

And it is before you consider the time it takes to figure out which mastery to take and what to do on level up which will all take longer. Something like DND Beyond can minimize this, but on pen and paper it is going to take time and space on the character sheet to write that down.

You say "easy DC 14" but I would argue at least 30% of the time someone does not know what their DC is on a battlemaster maneuver. At least 30%, and this will be no different.

So, again... no, these are not complicated. At all. Players can handle "I hit him, and now I have advantage to hit him again".

Not in my experience. It is adding math and time at a minimum and we don't need adding time to combat for no reason. The time combat takes already is probably the biggest detractor in the game. Oh I hit him .... what mastery do I get to do now ... I will do this one ... no I will do that one ... wait he is immune to prone so I will do this one instead.

There is no doubt this will increase the time combat takes, even if you believe it is minimal, it will absolutely take longer than combat currently does. I don't see any value from it, what is the positive in terms of play and story that you get from it in exchange for that extra time it takes?

 

[Asisreo]

That's the one? The one that is literally "get a +3 to attacks and damage" is the one you think is the edge of magic?

If it turns your sword into a magic sword, it is the result of magic.

And honestly, why not just give the fighter a straight increase in attack and damage rather than turn their sword into a magic sword?

Because they are that good of a thief. Seriously, it isn't hard. Stories have been doing this millenia. And frankly, immersion can go die in a hole. Because immersion is what keeps martials locked down and "normal" while we let casters get away with anything. I'm frankly sick and tired of immersion and realism. That's for levels below level 15, after that you are a multiversal force, you should at least be capable of breaking simple human limitations.

"It's magic" isn't really an explanation for how you can alter reality on a whim without tearing things apart, it just shuts down the conversation. "They are just that good" also shuts down the conversation in the exact same manner.

"As the paladin falls, decapitated, the cleric runs to his side. With tears flowing down their face, they begin casting a spell and in a flash of light, the paladin rises with his head intact. Weakened, the cleric falls to his knees."

"How did you do that?!" The rogue player asked.

"My deity saw my faith and answered my prayer. With divine intervention, they were able to heal."

Vs

"As the paladin falls, decapitated, the rogue runs to his side. With tears flowing down their face, they begin to pull out their surgical equipment and in a few moments, the paladin rises with his head intact. The rogue swipes sweat from his eyebrows."

"How did you do that?!" The cleric player asked.

"Oh, I'm just really good at medicine."

...

Nah, sorry, can't do it. That'd just kill the moment.

And unless you mean "reliably succeed without rolling a die" then you are falling for the same trap we are always dragged into.

This is what I mean, yes.

You mean.... all of them? There isn't a single spell that doesn't "just work"

90% of spells that inflict a status on the enemy requires a save.

A lot of spells require sight.

A lot of spells require targetting.

Commune has a chance to fail.

Teleport has a chance to fail.

Power Word Kill can fail.

Gate can fail.

Illusions can be seen through.

There are wards, barriers, and areas that can cause spells to fail in general.

There are spells dedicated to making spells fail.

There are many ways spells can just not work, but those spells are considered "bad" because they aren't guaranteed and only the spells with extremely good effects are even considered.

But here's the thing. There is a reason that WoTC got rid of those things... they sucked! No one liked them. Those that did, kept playing those editions.

And we don't need to nerf the casters, we CAN. BUFF. THE. MARTIALS! It is allowed. Perfectly legal. Not a crime.

Apparently, we can't buff the martials. There's a certain threshold people are willing to let martials be buffed before the casters start having a fit.

And maybe we shouldn't baby casters. If they want to be able to control the fabric of reality the least they can do is understand that power comes with drawbacks.