D&D (2024) 4/26 Playtest: The Fighter

[Asisreo]

This is a game where a mid-level character can faceplant to the ground from the highest tower in the land and walk it off. Any non-magical realism left the moment people started receiving class levels.

Though, it's important not to let things get too out-of-hand otherwise the themes and default assumptions of the game can change dramatically.

Stealing someone's wallet without them noticing is a funny trick. Completing an entire heist by yourself flawlessly is a near impossible feat. Stealing the hoard of an ever-vigilant dragon is a mythical feat. Stealing the kingdom's treasure from a nation's distance away is just magic. And stealing abstract ideas or intangible concepts is just looney toons logic.

I know people think nonmagic should be equally as useful as magic and I agree. But there's a difference between something being as useful and something being identical.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'd rather remove falling damage entirely than another way to add the obnoxious exhaustion mechanic. Either one.

Wait? Someone's bringing up falling damage? (I think a lot of people are blocking me from the way the conversation is skipping into non-sequiters)

Do people not remember that a level 1 wizard can swan-dive off of a sky-scraper and suffer zero damage? That by level 5 most mages can fly 12,000 ft up or down without any danger? By mid-levels a prepared mage laughs at the idea of heights being anything other than an annoyance, so why should epic level warriors care about falling damage?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Though, it's important not to let things get too out-of-hand otherwise the themes and default assumptions of the game can change dramatically.

Stealing someone's wallet without them noticing is a funny trick. Completing an entire heist by yourself flawlessly is a near impossible feat. Stealing the hoard of an ever-vigilant dragon is a mythical feat. Stealing the kingdom's treasure from a nation's distance away is just magic. And stealing abstract ideas or intangible concepts is just looney toons logic.

I know people think nonmagic should be equally as useful as magic and I agree. But there's a difference between something being as useful and something being identical.

There are two competing problems here.

1) Stealing an abstract idea is not looney toons logic, it is mythological logic. Anansi the Spider attempted to steal all the wisdom in the world. He did end up getting all of the stories of the world from the Sky God Nomi (sp?). Fey stealing names is common in all sorts of myths. This is literally just... mythology.

2) Two of the things you listed are impossible for a single character to do in DnD. Because those are adventures, and this is where we run into a problem. Maybe you have the rogue complete an entire heist by themselves (which is just... a handful of high skill checks they can casually do) but it has to happen off-screen, because if it happened on-screen then the rest of the party isn't doing anything, and so they aren't paying attention. This is important, because if the Wizard is using Gate to summon the God Atum to fight against the Demon King whom the party is trying to stop... everyone is paying attention. It is a big story moment that matters. But if the rogue steals 1 billion gold from the Dragon... well it was off-screen and it is just a number. Probably it just causes more issues for the party.

This is why we need martials to be able to do impactful, flashy things in the moment. Things that make a big impact on the story. The Demon King goes to activate their magical bauble, and the rogue player says "I swiped that" and they did. Not rolled a high sleight of hand, while hidden, yadda yadda, they just stole it while the Demon King stared them straight in the eyes, because they are one of the greatest thieves to ever live.

 

[Asisreo]

1) Stealing an abstract idea is not looney toons logic, it is mythological logic. Anansi the Spider attempted to steal all the wisdom in the world. He did end up getting all of the stories of the world from the Sky God Nomi (sp?). Fey stealing names is common in all sorts of myths. This is literally just... mythology.

You could argue its "divine" logic such that a divine being could attempt it. But a level 20 character is not a god in D&D. And, notably, the ability to do those things are often attributed to magic.

2) Two of the things you listed are impossible for a single character to do in DnD. Because those are adventures, and this is where we run into a problem. Maybe you have the rogue complete an entire heist by themselves (which is just... a handful of high skill checks they can casually do) but it has to happen off-screen, because if it happened on-screen then the rest of the party isn't doing anything, and so they aren't paying attention. This is important, because if the Wizard is using Gate to summon the God Atum to fight against the Demon King whom the party is trying to stop... everyone is paying attention. It is a big story moment that matters. But if the rogue steals 1 billion gold from the Dragon... well it was off-screen and it is just a number. Probably it just causes more issues for the party.

They don't have to be adventures just as summoning a God doesn't have to be a single spell. Atum can just not let you open the Gate in his realm if he's not inclined to get help a stranger wizard that thinks he's cooler than he is.

We can absolutely make a feature where the rogue instantaneously empties an entire keep without anyone noticing within a few hours and not interrupt the flow of the game (disregarding the DM figuring out the treasure within). But you're right that these things shouldn't just be allowed in the game.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Though, it's important not to let things get too out-of-hand otherwise the themes and default assumptions of the game can change dramatically.

The current theme and default assumption though is that martial player characters should be unable to do anything a random hobo from the local inn couldn't attempt. You cannot stick to that in a world where people have chats with their god over a tea, keep resurrecting local nobles after riding accidents or summon 12 wolves out of thin air.

 

[Chaosmancer]

You could argue its "divine" logic such that a divine being could attempt it. But a level 20 character is not a god in D&D. And, notably, the ability to do those things are often attributed to magic.

So things like stopping time, altering reality, reshaping the earth, controlling fire with a word, you know... all those divine things that casters do? Bringing back the dead was something divine too, something that many a warrior went on a grand quest to do. Level 9?

Yes, it is all attributed to magic. Which is why high level casters get to be gods. And high level martials get to.... be mildly impressive in combat, as long as they have magical weapons.

They don't have to be adventures just as summoning a God doesn't have to be a single spell. Atum can just not let you open the Gate in his realm if he's not inclined to get help a stranger wizard that thinks he's cooler than he is.

We can absolutely make a feature where the rogue instantaneously empties an entire keep without anyone noticing within a few hours and not interrupt the flow of the game (disregarding the DM figuring out the treasure within). But you're right that these things shouldn't just be allowed in the game.

So.... entirely ignore my suggestion on what should be allowed on in the game, and focus on the thing neither rogue players nor I want.

Again, why not just allow a thief to steal any item from anyone within 30 ft of them, as a capstone? Why aren't high level rogues under a permanent freedom of movement effect an immune to grapples and restraining effects? Why not have fighter's who can turn any item they grab into a +3 magical weapon? Why can't the very act of them drawing their weapon not freeze weaker enemies in place, helpless before them? Why isn't a barbarian's rage so savage and primal, that it burns impurities from their body, and their strength so massive they can shoulder check a castle and break through the walls?

You can't even do some basic things, like have a Paladin leap in front of a target and take an attack meant for someone else, let alone anything mythical like curing a sickness in the land with their prayer.

How can we argue that is "too much" when a wizard can make clones of themselves, and Druid's can make an entirely new species with their magic?

 

[Stalker0]

That by level 5 most mages can fly 12,000 ft up or down without any danger?

I do get the point, but I see this argument a lot....this assumption that wizards can just fly around however and whenever they feel like it. And its not quite true.

First, you have to have Fly as a prepared spell. (and fly is a good spell don't get me wrong, but there are a LOT of good 3rd level spells).
Then you have to use a 3rd level slot (which is still pretty rare until you get to double digit levels).
And that fly is by no means safe. If you take any proning effect, or the effect gets dispelled, you basically fall to your death.

At high levels I can see the argument, but a 5th level mage doesn't just fly around at will whenever they feel like it, and certainly not without risks.

 

[Incenjucar]

They're generally less than the risks of walking, where 99% of enemies are, especially if they have feather fall.

 

[ECMO3]

Disagree. None of these are complex at all.

Yes they are. It is easily twice as much time to resolve an attack and that is if the player knows what they are doing.

Add this in for the monsters (if that happens) and you are looking at large battles taking roughly 3 times the amount of time they take now, and it already too long.

IMO we need a mastery effcts that are set and require no additional rolls at all. That will still take longer, but it will be close.

 

[Asisreo]

So things like stopping time, altering reality, reshaping the earth, controlling fire with a word, you know... all those divine things that casters do? Bringing back the dead was something divine too, something that many a warrior went on a grand quest to do. Level 9?

Yes, it is all attributed to magic. Which is why high level casters get to be gods. And high level martials get to.... be mildly impressive in combat, as long as they have magical weapons.



So.... entirely ignore my suggestion on what should be allowed on in the game, and focus on the thing neither rogue players nor I want.

Again, why not just allow a thief to steal any item from anyone within 30 ft of them, as a capstone? Why aren't high level rogues under a permanent freedom of movement effect an immune to grapples and restraining effects? Why not have fighter's who can turn any item they grab into a +3 magical weapon? Why can't the very act of them drawing their weapon not freeze weaker enemies in place, helpless before them? Why isn't a barbarian's rage so savage and primal, that it burns impurities from their body, and their strength so massive they can shoulder check a castle and break through the walls?

You can't even do some basic things, like have a Paladin leap in front of a target and take an attack meant for someone else, let alone anything mythical like curing a sickness in the land with their prayer.

How can we argue that is "too much" when a wizard can make clones of themselves, and Druid's can make an entirely new species with their magic?

All of those things are reasonable and aren't really on the edge of magic except the +3 magic weapon fighter.

What I'm saying isn't that martials can't have cool things. I never said that, but they shouldn't just be magic by another name and we all close our eyes and pretend its not magic. Automatic success on stealing or being immune to grappling isn't magic but there's no way for a DM creating an adventure to not drag immersion through the mud as soon as the fighter players asks how exactly did the rogue steal the enemy's memories.

Martials should fulfill a role magic simply cannot fulfill and I think that should be reliability.