D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Vaalingrade]

In 4E terms, most literary wizards would be all dailies and no encounter powers. They do one big wallop move that changes the balance, and then they fall back and maintain or support while the martials work the advantage.

5E wizards just keep on pumping out more and more spells.

Or warlock as they just magic all the live-long day.

The ones that do one big thing strike me as Ontologically Lazy; not being useful in service of a plot by a writer who lacks either the skill, will or knowledge to come up with a magic system that serves their story. D&D wizards don't even have that excuse; their existence is laboring under the weight of psuedo-Vancian tradition.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Agreed with all of this. It's closely related to my concerns of the 5MWD. In both cases, these are solutions that require the DM to actively design the campaign to give the martials things to do rather than thinking about martials from the ground up in regards to their powers and abilities as heroes.

I do think that there's a very big challenge to navigate between people who want Martials to have Anime/4e/Book-of-9-Swords superpowers to express their heroism and people who want Martials to simply get higher dice counts and extra attacks and more rages and wider crit ranges, etc. Minimalist mechanics allowing the Martial to feel non-magical but powerful, and giving them room to use their skills to improvise.

I think the Weapon Mastery abilities for each weapon type is a nice exploration of ways that martials can get more out of what they do without it feeling magical. But I don't think all supernatural Warriors should be Monks or Fighters with a supernatural subclass or a Spellcaster of somesort. I'm just not sure how to make it all fit together without creating a new class that is essentially a Fighter in narrative but with Book of 9 Swords type mechanics.

The problem is that a certain segment of the fanbase has decided the discreet abilities of any kind; be it sweep a dude's leg easily, or punch a hole in a wall reliably simply MUST be considered magical by nature of being actually reliable and discreetly laid out in a format that isn't 'attack'.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

I think we need a new standard of martial prowess besides Hercules.

I would LOVE to see a fighter build that was able to do what Kratos can do but

I nominate Kratos, who has better feats of strength, actual martial technique and slaps around gods like a good Mid-level fighter ought. Plus he has a WAY better domestic track record than Mister Can't Make a Will Save to Save His LWife.

if we can't get beowulf and hercules in what world do you expect to get Kratos?

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Plus he has a WAY better domestic track record than Mister Can't Make a Will Save to Save His LWife.

god of war 1-3:

 

[Marandahir]

I think we need a new standard of martial prowess besides Hercules. Sure he was strong, but his feats were beating up some wild animals, doing some basic civil engineering and failing saves vs Will and Poison like it was going out of style. Sure he held up the vault of the heavens, but how hard is it to keep the atmosphere from falling to Earth? Dude needed a super genius child to help when he filled in for Thor.

I nominate Kratos, who has better feats of strength, actual martial technique and slaps around gods like a good Mid-level fighter ought. Plus he has a WAY better domestic track record than Mister Can't Make a Will Save to Save His LWife.

I think this also gets at an issue I have with D&D's character's in general and how they map to literary and other fictional heroes.
Most fiction would top out at 5th level or so, but pit the characters against Balors and Pit Fiends and Gods at the end of their narratives…

 

[DnD Warlord]

I would LOVE to see a fighter build that was able to do what Kratos can do but

What would a Kratos class look like? I assume it would look very little like modern fighter, but to be honest, I don't think a 30th level 4e fighter would fit either, but maybe with the right paragon and epic add ons.

 

[Emberashh]

I'm just not sure how to make it all fit together without creating a new class that is essentially a Fighter in narrative but with Book of 9 Swords type mechanics.

I like to think my take on it threads the needle. At least as far as having a complex semi-crunchy Martial goes. And while that Warrior is nearly entirely mundane (its support abilities aren't per say, but they're close enough, and it obviously scales beyond human capability) this is going to be juxtaposed with my take on the Battlemage, which takes the same Battle Combo concept and adapts it for integration with spellcasting, all under the guise of a Summoner type class thats all about conjured weapons and armor.

And meanwhile, things like the Paladin or Monk will have their own power sources and mechanics distinct from magic (Divinity and Psionics respectively), and between all of these and my other Martials (Rangers and Beastmasters as well as the described Rogue and Barbarian in that topic), I'll have the gamut of pokey stabby types from the purely mundane to the basically wizards.

 

[Incenjucar]

Unfortunately, I think the best known stories where fighters overcome wizards tend to star incompetent wizards with weird soft magic, or they're straight up anime and the fighter is shooting lasers with their sword.

There may be some good examples in superhero comics, but they get eclipsed by all the omega level mutant wizards.

D&D worlds really don't work the same way as most non-anime literature.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

D&D worlds really don't work the same way as most non-anime literature.

...so you're saying saitama is a 30th level monk?

 

[HammerMan]

Unfortunately, I think the best known stories where fighters overcome wizards tend to star incompetent wizards with weird soft magic, or they're straight up anime and the fighter is shooting lasers with their

Conan and even herc and Thor would not be up to facing a party of 4 17th level full casters.