D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

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Probably. :D

My basic point always remains the same though- people REALLY need to canvas their own groups. Track the damage output in your games for the next twenty or thirty rounds of combat. The results are very surprising. Heck, I was convinced that the Artificer in my group was dealing far, far more damage than she actually was. Her character was right in line with everyone else - it just seemed to my gut that she was dealing massively more damage than everyone else.

But, I did my due diligence. I tracked the damage output over twenty rounds of combat. And, I always count area damage as totals, not individual, so, hitting three targets with an AOE counts as triple. And, it turned out that nope. Her character was in line with everyone else. Any variation could be pretty easily explained (the bard, for example, focused on charms and battlefield control far more than any actual damage resulting in a much lower damage output, understandably).

I strongly suggest to everyone to track it. Fighters really do come in far lower than people seem to think and are very much not the top damage dealers.
I can weigh in on this, in the game I'm currently playing, Scarlet Citadel by Kobold Press, our group often encounters enemies with resistances to various damage types (including non-magical weapons). Even though my Wizard isn't focused on damage at all, the DM often announces I do a ton in battles; magic missile against oozes, that one devil we fought, and last session, just bashing a flaming sphere against something every turn while we were fighting trolls and some kind of undead wolf that is resistant to nonmagical piercing and bludgeoning (but not slashing! Amazing!). We finally got some magic weapons for the Ranger and the Monk, so I hope that helps, but it's been a drag and we just hit level 5.

I'm the only source of energy damage other than radiant or necrotic, and I find it seriously unfair. Non-magical characters should have good ways to reliably deal energy damage, but the game doesn't even have fire arrows in the PHB, thus forcing you to ask the DM questions like "hey can I make a flaming arrow?". Against a Troll, the Ranger had to ask if he could dual wield with a torch like Aragorn does in the Fellowship movie!

Ironically, AD&D had options like this; the Complete Thieves' book had this stuff called weaponblack, intended to keep blades from reflecting light sources at night, but even it says you can light the stuff on fire to turn a weapon into a non-magical Flametongue for a few turns (if you're willing to take d6 fire damage each turn for holding it!).

Heck, 3.5 had an extensive list of alchemical items for a wide array of circumstances, perfect for someone to spend money on. 5e barely has anything!
 

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Ok. I’m not sure what your point is. You’ve just made my excellently… even a basic fighter wielding a long sword does much more damage than cantrips at every level. .
they do more with there at will then the caster does with there at will... the fighter doesn't have a heap load of dailys.

Ad a stat to the cantrip or make it a more damage focused one and the caster catches right up...

a caster can deal damage similar if not exact to a fighter, but the fighter can not no matter what they do keep up with spells.
You’re also not taking into account Magic resistance (common), energy resistance (relatively common) and immunity (common enough at level 11+)
if we do that we need to take weapon resist and immunity into account too.
Of course fighters have fighting styles, feats, Battlemaster powers, and the ubiquitous magic weapons etc. so they have plenty of their own resources.
and casters have subclass abailities feats and other things as well... how indepth do you want to go? how many details before you call it schrodinger's cat?
The average die counts you’re referring to are for HP and in stat blocks
it is a round up instead of assuming someone rolls half a pip.
It cracks me up that the people still think to argue this based on Fighter damage not being good enough.
right since we prove over and over again it isn't good enough... it's good but not good enough to make up for 10 spell slots 15 spell slots 20 spell slots.
The maths has been proven time and time again on the threads. Do a search if you don’t believe me.
you are not correct.
 


Ok. I’m not sure what your point is. You’ve just made my excellently… even a basic fighter wielding a long sword does much more damage than cantrips at every level. You’re also not taking into account Magic resistance (common), energy resistance (relatively common) and immunity (common enough at level 11+)

Of course fighters have fighting styles, feats, Battlemaster powers, and the ubiquitous magic weapons etc. so they have plenty of their own resources.

The average die counts you’re referring to are for HP and in stat blocks when you don’t roll creature damage. Do you play that? You don’t roll creature damage? That’s not the way of working out averages certainly not for player attacks. If you’re going to be picky about it the. One 5, one 4, one 5 etc. alternating each die. The average is technically 13.5 but 14 will do.

It cracks me up that the people still think to argue this based on Fighter damage not being good enough. The maths has been proven time and time again on the threads. Do a search if you don’t believe me.
Yes, in general, what gets 'proven' is that melee fighter attack damage is better than cantrip damage...

..in a best case scenario for the melee fighter, fighting a single target or multiple targets where all targets are within reach or positioned such that the fighter does not lose turns to movement/obstacles etc. And where being in melee range of the target(s) is unlikely to result in the fighter taking a speedy and unceremonious dirt nap.

How common is this best case? I don't know. Decently common maybe?

It is also, of course, a comparison of spellcasters using their last tools vs fighters using their best tools..and the caster damage, while less, is still competitive. Moreso the further the scenario drifts from best case assumptions for melee, the more competitive spellcaster cantrip damage becomes.

Other comparisons also reveal that the number of targets that casters need to hit with their leveled damage spells to keep up with or exceed fighter damage is very low.
 
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Man, if only.

At that point we're just starting to cross into a badwrongfun argument.

If someone feels they're doing big damage and getting their kicks out of it, you can't really say it isn't providing the fun experience just because it might not be for you.

Martials and casters are supposed to be distinct fantasies after all, and regardless of the specifics its generally ideal to not deliver those fantasies in the exact same way mechanically.

Hence why so many tend to react negatively towards martial abilities that are mechanically indistinct from spells.

Heck, thats why in LNO I explicitly set out to not just copy the maneuver system and instead developed my Battle Combo system for them insread. Its mechanically distinct and goes farther with delivering a specifically Martial fantasy rather than a reskinned mage.
 

Martials and casters are supposed to be distinct fantasies after all, and regardless of the specifics its generally ideal to not deliver those fantasies in the exact same way mechanically.
And martial design keeps being done in a way to prevent the fantasy it's supposed to be servicing.

That's the problem.

No kid picks up a stick and pretend they're just swinging and doing 'big damage'; they pretend to be badasses. Something martials aren't allowed to be because 'verisimilitude' or 'simplicity' or 'the stick isn't magic' or some other excuse.
 

Hence why so many tend to react negatively towards martial abilities that are mechanically indistinct from spells.
This is where I wonder what level of mechanical distinction is truly necessary. Is 'Second Wind' a problem? Or 'Action surge'?

Because their entire mechanical identity is "on your turn you do a thing, and you gotta rest before you do it again"

This would seem to be just as usable a mechanical template for higher impact abilities as it is for Action Surge and Second Wind.
 


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