D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Chaosmancer]

But isn't that the issue.

Arcane spells from Mages are designed to be encounter enders. Since 1e.
Divine spells from Priests were designed to be encounter savers and niche encounter enders (destory the undead, banish the fiends.)
Martial attacks from Warriors are designed to be cumulative effects that help end encounters.

This is why the game breaks at high levels.
Because if the Encounters are not greater than the Encounter Enders, the Warriors can't get the cumulative attacks out.
This forces the designs to adjust the attacks needed for the get to the cumulative sum.
If they go damage, the warriors do all the damage if they can hit and it slogs if they can't.
If they go control without still remaining simple, slog.

It comes down to on thing, the D&D designers wanting martials to be both simple and complex, magical and nonmagical under the same class.

Just make new classes.
The Fighter cannot successfully encompass 50 archetypes.

I am utterly confused by your point. We were working on a class design before this video thru us off track, and you began stating that weapon masteries were bad. And that somehow this was because it made fighter's better at low tiers and broke the game.

I really think this "slog" issue is MASSIVELY overblown. At level 5 the fighter is going to maybe force two saves a turn, if they have the correct weapon mastery, if they hit, and if they choose to activate it. Meanwhile a Cleric who has Spirit Guardians and casts toll of the dead can force 4 saves per turn, which is the exact same dice.

And in terms of slog... a Warlock, Wizard, Cleric, Druid party can all force multiple saves from multiple targets, multiple times a round. And this is not something that we attempt to fix because it will slow the game too much. The minuscule change in how fast a fighter player will take their turn is not a problem. Especially since, personally, I have noticed that taking a fast turn as a martial? It feels cheap. It feels like I'm clearly not doing anything impactful, because my turn is over in five seconds and everyone else is taking four times as long. Call it strange psychology, but being the only person whose job is to be simple and do little so the fight progresses quickly is... bad. It feels bad, and it feels like bad game design.

 

[Chaosmancer]

When the Athletics skill swallows up Acrobatics, and Strength is used for all physical stunts − including running across a tightrope or a tree branch at top speed − then Athletics becomes a powerful skill for exploration encounters.

A warrior with expertise and-or advantage in this agile Athletics, helps make the Fighter competent or even expert at various mobility challenges.

And means that all cat burlgars and thieves can no longer perform acrobatic stunts as well as heavily muscled men in armor.

Also, Expertise is a rogue ability. Fighter's being able to impose advantage on checks could be interesting... but the help action generally covers this.

 

[Yaarel]

And yet, I think the discussion was more about things like Topple, which are basically never going to be done by someone with a longbow from 600 ft away.

Note, the Treantmonk playtesting called out Topple as both broken and cumbersome during gameplay. I am unsure it is a useful example.

A Fighter should be able to inflict the Frightened condition (such as via Intimidation, perhaps with a class feature that grants expertise or an advantage when used this way). A Fighter might be able to inflicted the Blinded condition, such as throwing sand within melee range.

Maybe a Fighter could shoot an arrow from a 100 feet away, to make the eye of a Dragon be Blinded. However, I dont like to see "loss of life or limb" unless the target is at zero hit points. Possibly, certain conditions could become possible if the target is already Bloodied.

Generally, a normal Fighter has the narrative plausibility to inflict conditions. It is a matter of implementing the flavor mechanically in balanced ways.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Especially since, personally, I have noticed that taking a fast turn as a martial? It feels cheap. It feels like I'm clearly not doing anything impactful, because my turn is over in five seconds and everyone else is taking four times as long. Call it strange psychology, but being the only person whose job is to be simple and do little so the fight progresses quickly is... bad. It feels bad, and it feels like bad game design.

i know what you mean, but i've found that in pf2e when i have a fast turn as a fighter, most of the time it feels like the discombobulate meme because i've walked up to the meanest guy in the room and given him the world's worst concussion. so depending on what you actually do on your turn, having it be super fast can feel either cheap like you say, or like you just rolled up with a bolter and set it to fuller auto (yeah, i know in that video the bolter rounds get stopped, but sh that's not the point).

 

[Yaarel]

And means that all cat burlgars and thieves can no longer perform acrobatic stunts as well as heavily muscled men in armor.

I am ok with Rogues needing to do Strength Checks when performing things that logically require Strength, such as physical stunts.

That said. A Rogue can have a class feature that allows it to substitute Dexterity for Strength.

Meanwhile, Athletics is body sense including balance. One could use Dexterity for balance, similar to using Dexterity for a finesse weapon. But it would be the difference between cautiously and precisely inching across a tightrope using a Dexterity (Athletics) Check, versus running across a tightrope at top speed using a Strength (Athletics) Check.

Also, Expertise is a rogue ability. Fighter's being able to impose advantage on checks could be interesting... but the help action generally covers this.

Whatever the mechanic. I hope nobody has problem with a Fighter tending to be competent at Athletics.

 

[Yaarel]

as well as heavily muscled men in armor.

Yes. Heavy Armor can interfere with Athletics. This is reality.

That said. Very high Strength can obviate armor penalties, thus allowing mobility while in armor. A strong person can wear chain armor more comfortably than a less strong person can, and can jump and swim in chain armor and so on.

A high Strength Warrior can choose between a heavy armor knight concept or a high mobility skirmisher concept. They are different builds.

 

[Hussar]

versus running across a tightrope at top speed using a Strength (Athletics) Check.

How is running across a tightrope at top speed an Athletics check?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

How is running across a tightrope at top speed an Athletics check?

If you really want to fold Acrobatics into Athletics?

Otherwise yeah…odd choice.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So, anyone want to start a + thread dedicated to actually identifying 1-5 design paths, and then branching out to pursue each path and report in to the main thread regularly on progress or with thorny issues?

Edit: idk if anyone other than me wants to give martials (especially fighter) something like Moves/4e skill style features that describe things like “gain the high ground”, “study the field”, “hold the line”, “one impossibly lethal strike”, etc, rather than “Come and Get It - as an attack as part of the attack action you can taunt a foe with XYZ extra mechanics” type maneuvers.

I’ve no interest whatsoever in trying to build the 4e fighter, but in 5e, but I’d love to build a set of martial features that actually feel different from how casters work.

 

[Yaarel]

How is running across a tightrope at top speed an Athletics check?

We are discussing the implications of the Athletics skill absorbing the Acrobatics skill.

In any case, D&D still has the absurdity of characters that are great at jumping being incapable of landing, or characters that are great at climbing being incapable of balancing.

It needs to be a single skill, and a single ability.

The same accuracy and agility that allows Strength to aim a sword or a fist, also applies to being accurate and agile in other ways. Strength is agile. Generally, Strength handles ALL "gross motor" skills that emphasize body stunts. By contrast, Dexterity handles "fine motor" skills that emphasize cautious precision.

Meanwhile the Strength (Athletics) Check becomes the go-to for all "swashbuckling" and "daredevil" concepts. It is something that the Fighter should be able to do, and without MAD-ness to do it.