D&D (2024) D&D 5.11 - the time of big change is over

[mamba]

ROI is an important consideration. This approach means that WotC hasn't put out any books full of material that people didn't want: which was a big problem in prior Editions.

spending a few weeks refining something with what, a handful of people? The I part of that ROI is pretty minimal, the question is what it does to the R part, and that is hard to answer.

Worst case it was a waste of an amount that means nothing to WotC, because even the revised version gets rejected. Best case? Not sure anyone knows. So the risk vs reward here seems to be pretty ok to me

As to releasing a book of material people do not want, I am not sure how many people want a warmed over PHB with no major changes.
Sure, they can sell that to anyone new to D&D, just like they do with the 2014 version today, but for that they do not really need a new book in the first place. So the question is what gets people to upgrade, and right now it gets me more interested in what others like C7 are doing than in buying the 2024 PHB…

Maybe I am a small minority, but I sure am disappointed with this hard reversal

 

[Parmandur]

As to releasing a book of material people do not want, I am not sure how many people want a warmed over PHB with no major changes.
Sure, they can sell that to anyone new to D&D, just like they do with the 2014 version today, but for that they do not really need a new book in the first place. So the question is what gets people to upgrade, and right now it gets me more interested in what others like C7 are doing than in buying the 2024 PHB…

Honestly, the art will probably be more important on that front than any rules. Backwards compatibility will also probsvly equate to more sales than any possible change could.

 

[mamba]

Honestly, the art will probably be more important on that front than any rules. Backwards compatibility will also probsvly equate to more sales than any possible change could.

how disappointing, all the issues they wanted to address seem to not get tackled, but at least we get better halfling art, hopefully (at this rate, I am not holding my breath on that one either )

 

[Parmandur]

how disappointing, all the issues they wanted to address seem to not get tackled, but at least we get better halfling art, hopefully (at this rate, I am not holding my breath on that one either )

Actually, the issues that I've heard the designers grouse about over the years (particularly around the Ranger, or problematic Race which changes were received very well) seem to be getting addressed. They tested the 2014 rules in huge surveys over the past couple years, so they are the ones who know the actual pain points, and how the existing options compared to their experiments. So, I tend to believe thst what actual issues wanted addressing by and large, are being addressed.

 

[mamba]

I tend to believe thst what actual issues wanted addressing by and large, are being addressed.

they did not eliminate short rests as a skill recharge, Druid wildshape was not fixed, and while having the same subclass progression might not have been an issue (not sure), I certainly would have preferred it.

So they fixed what they could fix in a Tasha’s just as well, but not anything more fundamental than that

 

[Parmandur]

they did not eliminate short rests as a skill recharge, Druid wildshape was not fixed, and while having the same subclass progression might not have been an issue (not sure), I certainly would have preferred it.

So they fixed what they could fix in a Tasha’s just as well, but not anything more fundamental than that

The Druid Woldshape in the latest packet is changed significantly from 2014. The Subclass progression is being changed, for the starting Level, but the absolute standardization didn't fly, yet it is still being changed.

These are big changes, but they are narrowing down to popular changes, that fit the end goal of game design...pleasing the majority of players.

 

[mamba]

These are big changes, but they are narrowing down to popular changes, that fit the end goal of game design...pleasing the majority of players.

I guess we disagree on what big changes are… also, even with the big changes that are now missing, you still considered this to be 5e compatible and not a 5.5 (same as me), so even those were not all that big

Can’t argue with pleasing players, apart from my point that I wished they had given things a second chance instead of throwing them out right away - or a better first draft when they already knew that was their one and only shot at it. The UA Wildshape was woefully inadequate in that case… (plus some more direct questions, don’t think there was one explicitly about the unified progression, and yet they somehow determined it was not popular enough)

 

[Parmandur]

I guess we disagree on what big changes are… also, even with the big changes that are now missing, you still considered this to be 5e compatible and not a 5.5 (same as me), so even those were not all that big

Can’t argue with pleasing players, apart from my point that I wished they had given things a second chance instead of throwing them out right away - or a better first draft when they already knew that was their one and only shot at it. The UA Wildshape was woefully inadequate in that case… (plus some more direct questions, don’t think there was one explicitly about the unified progression, and yet they somehow determined it was not popular enough)

Well, sure itstill 5E...whichnis what Crawford has been saying all along.

 

[mamba]

Well, sure itstill 5E...whichnis what Crawford has been saying all along.

of course, my point was not to make it something else.

My point was that it would have been 5e even with the now ‘missing’ changes and that I wish they would have tried a revised version of those before throwing the towel in

The core point was this part

I wished they had given things a second chance instead of throwing them out right away - or a better first draft when they already knew that was their one and only shot at it.

maybe that got lost

If in the end they still fail, go with the popular vote, but if you want to change Wildshape to templates and release the UA Wildshape as your one and only shot at it, that is bordering on sabotage

 

[HammerMan]

Fighter doesn't need to do all the work all the time. You want an elf steeped in magic that becomes a warrior? So play an elf steeped in magic. Its a high elf with a combat cantrip like Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade.

Heck a high elf fighter with prestidigitation