D&D (2024) The WotC Playtest Surveys Have A Flaw

[Ruin Explorer]

Given how they've been advertising books lately, I'm basically one of the two options:

1) Todd Kenreck overenthusiastically talks about the new core rulebooks with Chris Perkins
2) Jeremy Crawford stands awkwardly in front of a camera with Chris Perkins and makes awkward jokes while explaining the most basic feature of the books with a minute-long run-on sentence.

Yeah lol. And what these are is very cheap and very in-house. I really hope they manage to do real advertising for 2024.

I mean god bless Todd Kenreck he is in many ways the best they have, talking-wise, and he technically doesn't even work for them.

 

[Horwath]

I have no problem with 0.01% of players deciding this. Its a feature not a bug

Like political elections, if you do not vote, you do not get to complain.

And this is even better than those, where every idiot has the same vote as an PhD, here you have a chance to write something smart and your opinion might be valued more than someone that just checked the box for grading certain feature.

 

[CleverNickName]

So argue on your behalf, let them know you exist. If other people cannot be bothered to engage and tell them what they want, thats on them.

On one hand, I agree: if Doug wants his opinion heard, he should fill out the survey. But that's a fringe case--Doug being wrong about warlocks is a minor difference of opinion, not a problem. The real point I was trying to make about "remembering who you speak for" is right below the one you quoted.:

My nieces and nephews are all tweens. They aren't playtesters, and they are far too pure for internet discussion forums about D&D. I will never get them to fill out a survey online, but they love Dungeons & Dragons. And most importantly, they are the people who are going to be buying these new products in the next 1d4+1 years, and recommending them to their friends. We would do well to keep that in mind.

 

[Scribe]

On one hand, I agree: if Doug wants his opinion heard, he should fill out the survey. But that's a fringe case--Doug being wrong about warlocks is a minor difference of opinion, not a problem. The real point I was trying to make about "remembering who you speak for" is right below the one you quoted.:

My nieces and nephews are all tweens. They aren't playtesters, and they are far too pure for internet discussion forums about D&D. I will never get them to fill out a survey online. But they love Dungeons & Dragons. And most importantly, they are the people who are going to be buying these new products in the next 1d4+1 years, and recommending them to their friends. We would do well to keep that in mind.

All correct and fair.

My only concern is, do I want a game for tweens that are too pure for internet discussion, and will they still be the same in 1d4+1 years, as they are today, in terms of interest, tone, style?

(My answer is a flat out no of course, which should go with out saying. I dont want a game appropriate for pure of heart, innocent tweens in any capacity.)

 

[tetrasodium]

self selected surveys trend towards being different from the general average in some way but oversampling grognards is only one possible problem. Another oversampled group* is almost certainly people who see someone spreading fear about a nerf & reflexively vote against it without looking too deeply beyond the report. One of those groups is weighted against while the other is aided by wotc's weighting.
Only one of those two groups tends to do a lot with regards to doing things like running games creating adventures and getting new people into the hobby, not so much with the other.

* Like some statistically significant fraction of the 27,000 people who upvoted this then went on to be part of the 30-40k or so voters in wotc's survey for that packet...

 

[MGibster]

I belong to three different gaming groups. And of those 18 people in total, I'm the only one who is following the development of the game at all. I'm the only one who knew that Wizards of the Coast is working on a new edition rules revision, and my fellow gamers get really defensive when I mention it. One guy will actually growl at me every time I bring up the playtest, "We are not changing editions again!" They weren't even aware of the OGL debacle earlier this year, and it was supposed to have blown up the Internet.

I've long held the opinion that what we spend a lot of time discussing are things the wider audience is simply unware of or indifferent to. If I were to mention Orion Black to the average D&D player they'd probably ask if he was in a Monster Manual or something. I don't mean to imply that this means those issues are unimportant, certainly my opinion should be taken as gospel, I just think we get a skewed perspective here and on other online forums because it's a self-selected group.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Just noting that in my experience as well, most people are not even aware there is a playtest happening. That self-selects for a certain kind of online grognard.

And then we get to the structures of the surveys themselves, which are pages of clinical-feeling 'rate this', but what you are asked to rate always feels a bit off the mark... and it's also kind of exhausting to fill, which definitely limits the sample selection even further.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

And this is even better than those, where every idiot has the same vote as an PhD, here you have a chance to write something smart and your opinion might be valued more than someone that just checked the box for grading certain feature.

Nah.

WotC may read some of the surveys (it's literally not possible they're reading all of them in any way that matters if they're getting 20-40K though), but their key metric, they've stressed over and over again is 70%+ approval of an idea.

(My answer is a flat out no of course, which should go with out saying. I dont want a game appropriate for pure of heart, innocent tweens in any capacity.)

You must have really hated 2E lol given that was exactly what that was, by the standards of the day.

I think the real issue there is more that D&D tonally is edging perhaps a little too close to tween and younger cartoons in tone and in terms of what it actually depicts in language and art, despite the fact that the bulk of the playerbase is in their teens, twenties, and thirties.

And I will say one thing - yeah, in 5-10 years there are going to be a lot of kids raised on ultra-twee material who are going to be goth/punk/grunge etc. as hell, and so I'm not sure WotC's very focused "Make it twee, make it safe!" approach to D&D is going to pay off all that well. The sheer lack of competition may help though.

And then we get to the structures of the surveys themselves, which are pages of clinical-feeling 'rate this', but what you are asked to rate is always off the mark... but it's kind of exhausting to fill, which definitely limits the sample selection even further.

Yeah the complete lack of direction and just relentless "rate everything" is deeply exhausting and means anything later in the survey is going to get less seriously considered than earlier stuff. Sure you can say "No opinion" over and over, but it's just as much work as having an opinion!

 

[CleverNickName]

All correct and fair.

My only concern is, do I want a game for tweens that are too pure for internet discussion, and will they still be the same in 1d4+1 years, as they are today, in terms of interest, tone, style?

(My answer is a flat out no of course, which should go with out saying. I dont want a game appropriate for pure of heart, innocent tweens in any capacity.)

See, but I do. Because yes, my tweenage nieces and nephews will grow up into teenagers and young adults, but more tweens will be following behind them. That age demographic is always going to be there, and will always be important: that is the foundation of the hobby, in both my experience and opinion. We can't neglect it.

 

[Scribe]

See, but I do. Because yes, my tweenage nieces and nephews will grow up into teenagers and young adults, but more tweens will be following behind them. That age demographic is always going to be there, and will always be important: that is the foundation of the hobby, in both my experience and opinion. We can't neglect it.

And we dont have to neglect it, it was not neglected before, and here we are.

The game was not built on the backs of tweens, and need not be.