D&D General Why the resistance to D&D being a game?

[Gammadoodler]

Not having magic and doing what they do makes them  more ridiculous.

I disagree.

To me it's far more ridiculous to have the bro who just has their God take in the dry cleaning every day, or the lady who just says "screw it, I'll just make another me" or the rando who just turns into an air elemental several times a day..

than it is to just have a person who is just really good at fighting...being really good at fighting.

 

[Cadence]

oh i see your point, probably i assume but i've always been incredibly awful at estimating and envisioning what any measure of weight represent in 'stuff', if anyone is willing, would you spell out for me just how much weight a STR20 goliath with powerful build would be able to carry and how that stacks up to some of the hulk's feats? (lets stick with MCU examples cause i think the comics can go even more insane with how strong he gets?)

Cutting to the chase, a STR 20 goliath with powerful build comes in at 1200 pounds which is apparently Captain America in the comics.

In detail...

In D&D it says a character can lift 30 x strength score. Double for each size above medium, so 2x for large, 4x for huge, 8x for gargantuan.

One Marvel comics related page lists natural peak human over-head lift as between 600 and 700 pounds with maximum before being considered super-human as 800 pounds.

It isn't clear what kind of lift either is talking about, but the world records in the snatch and clean and jerk for lifting over the head are 496 pounds and 589 pounds respectively - which bumps up to 600 pounds pretty easy if we're being actiony. (The records for the 134 pound competitor weight class in the Olympics were 313 pounds and 379 pounds, so about 64% as much if we want to talk about how much relatively stronger the 40 pound halfling is than an IRL human of that size would be).

So, a 20 maximum ability score in 5e would be a lifting of 600 pounds which seems about right, so converting strength scores for some human sized folks based on a semi-random marvel comics (not MCU) page. (I couldn't find an MCU one).

Daredevil 450 pounds = STR 15
Black Panther 800 pounds = STR 26
Captain America 1,200 pounds = STR 40 (or powerful build with a 20 STR)
Spider-Man - 10 tons = STR 667 (it feels like the D&D system isn't built for this)
Sub-Mariner - 100 tons = STR 6667
More - Hulk, Thor = lots

Converting some D&D monsters the other way doesn't necessarily give anything sensible for huge and gargantuan creatures.

Ogre - Large 19 Str (2x19x30) = 1140 pounds
Hill Giant - Huge 21 Str (4x21x30) = 1.25 tons
Stone or Frost Giant - Huge 23 Str = 1.38 tons
Fire Giant - Huge 25 Str = 1.5 tons
Cloud Giant - Huge 27 Str = 1.62 tons
Storm Giant - Huge 29 Str = 1.74 tons
Gargantuan instead of huge (so like a titan) doubles the giants

Approxmate eights of Things
Average male Gorilla = 350 pounds
Average Motorcycle = 400 pounds
Average male Grizzly Bear or Tiger = 500 pounds
Average Horse = 1000 pound
Draft Horse = 1800 pounds (0.9 tons)
Empty Toyota Camry = 1.6 tons (Cloud Giant)
Average empty Ford F150 or Lincoln Town Car = 2.5 tons
Average empty Ford F350 = 3.5 tons
Average speed boat = 4 tons
Empty School Bus = 5-7.5 tons
Big oak tree = 10 tons
Full School Bus = 12-15 tons
Train Locomotive = 100-225 tons
Empty 747 = 200 tons
Max 747 = 440 tons
Aircraft carrier > 100,000 tons

Various crazy uses of human strength are at: Events - The World’s Strongest Man

 

[M_Natas]

The fighter also has an ability that reliably heals himself back up using a limited resource. Clearly Second Wind is a magical healing spell!

Depends on how you see Hitpoints in the game. By RAW hitpoints are more than Body. It is a mixture of resolve, luck, endurance and body.
So second wind is more of a regaining of resolve.
If you see Hitpoints just as meat, than second wind is definitely magical/supernatural/unnatural.

FWIW, D&D is neither a fiction first game nor a mechanics first game. It may claim to be fiction first, but it's an inconsistent mix. It actually has a LOT of mechanics first as part of its game. Falling damage in D&D, for example, is an example of mechanics first and not fiction first.

Hrm? Falling damage is a way to resolve ... falling. It is not the best designed "subsystem", but I don't see how it is mechanic first. But if you advocate that the DM gets more say in the results of the fall, I have nothing against that.

The fiction is only pertinent in so far as the GM consults the mechanical table that determines how much fall damage the character takes on the basis of distance. The rest of the fiction, first or otherwise, doesn't matter to the consequences.

An example of falling damage in a more fiction first oriented game would be like in Fate or Blades in the Dark, where things like a broken foot are possible consequences of a fall that can impair the character and be used against them. But these are games where the consequences are meant to follow the established fiction.

The problem is that D&D 5e doesn’t have lingering injuries. I would love for the Game to have that, but that would collide with the rules light approach WotC took, which I find a little sad

 

[mamba]

It cuts both ways certainly.

I rather cut this way than the other

 

[Campbell]

A fighter may be supernaturally strong, resilient and capable of wacking things. What I do not want them to be is supernaturally able to influence reality outside of how they physically interact with that reality physically.

If you want that, there are plenty of classes and other games.

I'm not looking to play a game where fighters have the ability to supernaturally influence reality. I am looking to play and run games (sometimes) where fighters can be just that damn good at provoking people. Insisting I'm doing the former when I'm really doing the latter is messed up. It doesn't have to appeal to you, but there is no need to blatantly misrepresent what's happening here.

 

[mamba]

I disagree.

To me it's far more ridiculous to have the bro who just has their God take in the dry cleaning every day, or the lady who just says "screw it, I'll just make another me" or the rando who just turns into an air elemental several times a day..

than it is to just have a person who is just really good at fighting...being really good at fighting.

and the taunt relates to fighting in which way?

I am ok with the fighter being good at fighting, but not to the point where he is The Hulk. If that is what it takes to keep up with the casters, the issue us with the casters

 

[Oofta]

Do the creators of WotC consider them supernatural? Or is this a fiction of your own device that you impose on the game to reconcile your own cognitive biases? I think that it's fine if it's your own biases or preferences, but I think trying to pretend that the game does or should follow those preferences is where the problem exists.

I have no idea what the developers believe. Every class has a specific target archetype. The fighter's archetype is a mighty warrior, perhaps at high levels something like Hercules. What they are not is a class, barring subclass, that alters reality through abilities that don't require physical interaction.

The designers of 5E rejected many of the concepts from 4E which included things like the Come and Get It power that the power in question replicates (and turns up way past 11). So yes, I feel fairly confident that since they changed direction from the previous edition and did not give fighters these type of abilities. I consider them explicitly supernatural, the developers obviously felt that they did not consider them something fighters should have.

I don't know if the developers would use the same label to describe a feature that fighters should have "explicitly supernatural" or not. But they obviously didn't believe fighters should be doing this kind of stuff by default.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Cutting to the chase, a STR 20 goliath with powerful build comes in at 1200 pounds which is apparently Captain America in the comics.

In detail...

In D&D it says a character can lift 30 x strength score.
Double for each size above medium, so 2x for large, 4x for huge, 8x for gargantuan.

One Marvel comics related page lists natural peak human over-head lift as between 600 and 700 pounds with maximum before being considered super-human as 800 pounds.

It isn't clear what kind of lift either is talking about, but the World records in the snatch and clean and jerk lifting over the head are 496 pounds and 589 pounds respectively - which bumps up to 600 pounds pretty easy if we're being actiony. (The records for the 134 pound competitor weight class in the Olympics were 313 pounds and 379 pounds, so about 64% as much if we want to talk about how much relatively stronger the 30 pound halfling is).

So, a 20 maximum ability score in 5e would be a lifting of 600 pounds which seems about right, so converting strength scores for some human sized folks based on this random web-page

Daredevil 450 pounds = STR 15
Black Panther 800 pounds = STR 26
Captain America 1,200 pounds = STR 40 (or a large with a 20 STR)
Spider-Man - 10 tons = STR 667
Sub-Mariner - 100 tons = STR 6667
More - Hulk, Thor = lots

Converting some D&D monsters the other way doesn't necessarily give anything sensible for huge and gargantuan creatures.

Ogre - Large 19 Str (2x19x30) = 1140 pounds
Hill Giant - Huge 21 Str (4x21x30) = 1.25 tons
Stone or Frost Giant - Huge 23 Str = 1.38 tons
Fire Giant - Huge 25 Str = 1.5 tons
Cloud Giant - Huge 27 Str = 1.62 tons
Storm Giant - Huge 29 Str = 1.74 tons
Gargantuan instead of huge (so like a titan) doubles the giants

Weights of Things
Average Horse 1000 pound
Draft Horse 1800 pounds (0.9 tons)
Toyota Camry = 1.6 tons (Cloud Giant)
Ford F150 = 2.5 tons
Empty School Bus = 5-7.5 tons
Full School Bus = 12-15 tons
Train Locomotive = 100-225 tons
Empty 747 = 200 tons
Max 747 = 440 tons
Aircraft carrier > 100,000 tons

Various crazy uses of human strength are at: Events - The World’s Strongest Man

Oh wow, that's kind of a pathetically low bar compared to what i'd imagine a barbarian would be capable of lifting, a 20 str goliath can lift...a slightly more overweight than average horse, i'd expect a max strength fantasy world barb to be swinging in the range of the loaded school bus, or 10 tons at the least.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Also the opinion of several other people on this thread. But this is all structured make believe so it's not like there's any "true" answer. It's all just opinion, and in my opinion the feature would not fit D&D's core assumptions.

Yep sure..explicitly at their tables too. And that's only assuming that both you and they are directly telling the players at your table that this is the case.

Because..the game does NOT explicitly label these maneuvers as supernatural. It doesn't even hint that they are supernatural. In fact, given how many abilities are called out as being explicitly supernatural, it might even be fair to say that the game goes out of its way to avoid any language that could possibly lead people to construe that the maneuvers are supernatural.

The only reason they are explicitly supernatural at your or others' tables is that you and others have taken special effort to write your own rules which take precedence over what is in the book, because that is how homebrew rules work.

They are "explicitly supernatural" at your table in the same way that all spells are "explicitly mundane" at my table.

 

[Oofta]

Oh wow, that's kind of a pathetically low bar compared to what i'd imagine a barbarian would be capable of lifting, a 20 str goliath can lift...a slightly more overweight than average horse, i'd expect a max strength fantasy world barb to be swinging in the range of the loaded school bus, or 10 tons at the least.

Which is part of the reason when people say "High level D&D characters are superheroes" I go ... eh. Depends on the superhero and what you're measuring.