Parmandur
Book-Friend
I mean, yes, metamagic is quite powerful.
D&D (2024) Are You Happy with the Selection of Subclasses?
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
It’s not “make the subclasses weak sauce and make thier actual Spellcasting pretty mid” powerful.
Parmandur
Book-Friend
But neither of those is true, in my play experience.
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Well that’s lucky for you.
But from many discussions around here I think we can conclude that 5e hits exactly the sweet spot for you, so a lot of issues aren’t going to be evident from your perspective.
Parmandur
Book-Friend
Fair. But where are you seeing a lack in the Sorcerer Subclasses, or a problem with their spellcasting, specifically?
Parmandur
Book-Friend
So, reviewing the Sorcerer again because why not, and I'm just not seeing it: the core 9 Level spellcasting is more than powerful enough, the Subclasses seem in line with the Wizard on a power level (hard to tell from pure theory craft, but from using it in play the Wild Surge is surprisingly very useful in practice, and the Draconic abilities are killer), though moat of the power budget goes to spellcasting (as with the Wizard) and metamagic. And I see no reason to suspect that WotC are overestimating the value of Metamagic options at a half-Spell Slot value.
Shadowedeyes
Adventurer
Okay, so here is my thoughts.
Barbarian
-I'm pretty happy overall with the 4 subclasses, although I think World Tree could use another pass, as it feels the mechanically weakest of the 4. I kinda wish Zealot was something different just because I think the thematic aspects of it are a bit weak and it mechanically lacks anything exciting until 14th level, but it's fine enough I guess.
Bard
I like the 4 options, although I might have some quibbles over the mechanics of some of them. That said, they each have their own thematic feel and I think none of the options are straight up bad. Valor is probably the weakest still though.
Cleric
Domains as subclass always meant you were going to have significant gaps in flavor for the class. That said, I think the four they did pick were solid choices to cover as much as possible. Life is the classic style cleric. War, Trickery and Light will all play differently from each other, so you can at least sorta tie them to more deities. Really, this is one of the classes the unfortunately is just going to feel off for some people if you are sticking to 4 subclasses per class.
Druid
Not too much to say here. I think it's a good selection, Circle of the Sea seems like a pretty cool new one. Circle of the Moon has been a bit rough in both iterations, although the last one I could live with.
Fighter
Brawler is just bad IMO and not worth it compared to getting a different one with a reprinted Unarmed Fighting Style. I like the improvements to Champion. Battlemaster is still great overall and Eldritch Knight is good, although I wish it could use a weapon as a spellcasting focus.
Monk
Monk obviously still has a number of issues with the base class, but I'm just going to comment on the subclasses. I like the changes to Shadow and think it its in a good place. Elements is a bit weird. I didn't get to playtest it, and on paper it looks very meh overall. Some people I have talked to however who did get to actually use it liked the push/pull and reach, and thought that part played great. I think part of the problem though is it invokes Avatar's element benders, but lacks some of the fun stuff they did in that show, so it doesn't meet a lot of people's expectations. Hand's 11th level is much better, although Quivering Palm got a downgrade, although that isn't surprising to me. Mercy is also a nice include for the 4th subclass.
Paladin
Not much to say, everything seems fine.
Ranger
Again, not a ton to say. Gloom Stalker getting brought down was expected, and the two base class ones seem okay. Fey Wanderer is my favorite Ranger subclass, so nice to see it rounding out the bunch.
Rogue
I've really liked where the rogue has ended up, and the subclasses for the most part as well. Assassin is still probably the weakest of them, but I think it's far more useable than it was before, and I love the Cunning Strike options for Swashbucker. Thief is okay, as is Arcane Trickster.
Sorcerer
I'm a bit worried on this one. I think Abberant and Clockwork as is overshadow the core two thanks to 10 extra spells with more spell options, especially now that we are back to the much more lackluster sorcerer spell list compared to when it was the Arcane list. Wild Magic did get a nice boost admittedly however. Draconic got back Draconic Presence, which did get a buff, but it still as massively boring as it was before. At least it isn't as worthless as it was before though.
Warlock
Love the changes to Archfey and Great Old One. I've never been particularly interested in Celestial, and so personally I wish we had gotten a different subclass, but that's entirely personal opinion, it seems fine as a "good" option for those that like it.
Wizard
Like cleric, 4 subclasses were going to be a tough sell for the wizard. Abjurer still feels like a weird pick, like a few other posts I would have though Necromancy would have gotten a slot over that one. Diviner makes sense as it's popular and the easiest to have a more generalist wizard feel, Evocation for blasting and Illusionist has the legacy to it. I'm not upset by any of the choices, but again, it feels like Abjurer could have had been a stronger thematic option.
Barbarian
-I'm pretty happy overall with the 4 subclasses, although I think World Tree could use another pass, as it feels the mechanically weakest of the 4. I kinda wish Zealot was something different just because I think the thematic aspects of it are a bit weak and it mechanically lacks anything exciting until 14th level, but it's fine enough I guess.
Bard
I like the 4 options, although I might have some quibbles over the mechanics of some of them. That said, they each have their own thematic feel and I think none of the options are straight up bad. Valor is probably the weakest still though.
Cleric
Domains as subclass always meant you were going to have significant gaps in flavor for the class. That said, I think the four they did pick were solid choices to cover as much as possible. Life is the classic style cleric. War, Trickery and Light will all play differently from each other, so you can at least sorta tie them to more deities. Really, this is one of the classes the unfortunately is just going to feel off for some people if you are sticking to 4 subclasses per class.
Druid
Not too much to say here. I think it's a good selection, Circle of the Sea seems like a pretty cool new one. Circle of the Moon has been a bit rough in both iterations, although the last one I could live with.
Fighter
Brawler is just bad IMO and not worth it compared to getting a different one with a reprinted Unarmed Fighting Style. I like the improvements to Champion. Battlemaster is still great overall and Eldritch Knight is good, although I wish it could use a weapon as a spellcasting focus.
Monk
Monk obviously still has a number of issues with the base class, but I'm just going to comment on the subclasses. I like the changes to Shadow and think it its in a good place. Elements is a bit weird. I didn't get to playtest it, and on paper it looks very meh overall. Some people I have talked to however who did get to actually use it liked the push/pull and reach, and thought that part played great. I think part of the problem though is it invokes Avatar's element benders, but lacks some of the fun stuff they did in that show, so it doesn't meet a lot of people's expectations. Hand's 11th level is much better, although Quivering Palm got a downgrade, although that isn't surprising to me. Mercy is also a nice include for the 4th subclass.
Paladin
Not much to say, everything seems fine.
Ranger
Again, not a ton to say. Gloom Stalker getting brought down was expected, and the two base class ones seem okay. Fey Wanderer is my favorite Ranger subclass, so nice to see it rounding out the bunch.
Rogue
I've really liked where the rogue has ended up, and the subclasses for the most part as well. Assassin is still probably the weakest of them, but I think it's far more useable than it was before, and I love the Cunning Strike options for Swashbucker. Thief is okay, as is Arcane Trickster.
Sorcerer
I'm a bit worried on this one. I think Abberant and Clockwork as is overshadow the core two thanks to 10 extra spells with more spell options, especially now that we are back to the much more lackluster sorcerer spell list compared to when it was the Arcane list. Wild Magic did get a nice boost admittedly however. Draconic got back Draconic Presence, which did get a buff, but it still as massively boring as it was before. At least it isn't as worthless as it was before though.
Warlock
Love the changes to Archfey and Great Old One. I've never been particularly interested in Celestial, and so personally I wish we had gotten a different subclass, but that's entirely personal opinion, it seems fine as a "good" option for those that like it.
Wizard
Like cleric, 4 subclasses were going to be a tough sell for the wizard. Abjurer still feels like a weird pick, like a few other posts I would have though Necromancy would have gotten a slot over that one. Diviner makes sense as it's popular and the easiest to have a more generalist wizard feel, Evocation for blasting and Illusionist has the legacy to it. I'm not upset by any of the choices, but again, it feels like Abjurer could have had been a stronger thematic option.
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Spell selection is lacking, meta-magic nickel and dimes the pc’s sorcery point pool for everything and you know too few at a given level, and tbh the subclass is pretty much good at level 1, and then I’m not that impressed by any of them.
Now, I don’t see as much issue as I think the person I was relying to earlier probably does, so they may be a better person to ask.
Oh and of course spell slots cost too many sorcery points, especially low level slots, but I already know from many Monk discussions you and I won’t agree there. Like the elements monk, the sorcerer is fine on paper.
Remathilis
Legend
The problem with sorcerers in 2014 was threefold:
1. You don't have enough spell choices for more than the two best spells of a given level.
2. The sorcerer spell list is weak and geared towards blasting
3. Sorcerer subclasses are highly thematic but the sorcerer list lacks sufficient choices and the sorcerer had too few choices to pick them when they did.
They have fixed 1. You get more choices now. They have regressed on 2. when they abandoned the Arcane list which was full of support for different types of casters. And the 3. was fixed by clockwork, aberrant and lunar giving large bonus spells list that fill in the sorcerer list with spells not normally on the sorcerer list.
So an aberrant and clockwork sorcs are in a good spot; they get 10 bonus spells that are on theme plus more spell choices from the more restricted Sorc list. Wild magic and draconic are in a far worse spot: they are down 10 spells (with no additional options like others) and are stuck with the limited spell list of the sorcerer. Dragon sorcs still lack good elemental spells unless you're a fire dragon, and wild doesn't have access to awesome chaos spells to compliment wild surge.
Of course, clockwork and aberrant would have been fine if they were still choices from Tasha's, they aren't getting any overhauls. Storm, divine and shadow though suffer the same issues as draconic and wild; not enough thematic spells on the sorcerer list and lack of additional spells known. It's exceptionally frustrating since storm had bonus spells in its UA that were removed because the PHB subs lacked them, only to later have aberrant and clockwork have better bonus spells than storm had! You can argue divine is in a good place since it will have the entire cleric list and more choices, but shadow again suffers from a lack of thematic shadow spells (or even illusions, enchantments and necromancy in general) and gets one additional spell (darkness). Storm and shadow could have benefited from being in the PHB and getting buffed to the level of Aberrant and clockwork, but instead the two best subs will remain the go-to choices while WotC refuses to add bonus spells to the other subclasses.
Maybe the eventual 2025 Everything book will even things out, but until then there is going to be a lot of modron and mindflayer sorcs...
Draconic Sorcerers get the rough equivalent of 4 spells that they don't ever have to cast: Mage Armor, False Life, Fly and Protection From Energy (for one element). I've played 2014 Draconic Sorcerers, and yes, spell selection and metamagic was restrictive, but I managed then, and it's fine now. I don't want to cookie-cutter 10 bonus spells on each Sorcerer subclass, I like that the Wild and Draconic play differently. The main thing I think Draconic Sorcerers really ought to have is a breath weapon and a way to turn into a Dragon. Wild mages ... I'd give them a unique metamagic that adds random effects to spells.
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