D&D 5E (2024) The new warlock (Packet 7)

[Mistwell]

I’m referring to this from the sidebar at the beginning of each UA:

Power Level. The character options you read here might be more or less powerful than options in the 2014 Player’s Handbook. If a design survives playtesting, we adjust its power to the desirable level before publication. This means an option could be more or less powerful in its final form.

But you’re correct, it doesn’t explicitly say not to provide feedback based on power level, so I did overstate my case. I would still say that the implication here is that feedback based on power level is not particularly useful.

They will make refinements based on feedback. Refinements are not feedback based on "interest." They've even mentioned people thought some things were underpowered or overpowered and made specific refinements based on that feedback. Heck, the Counterspell changes were initiated because people said for years it was overpowered.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

As much as I like Hurl Through Hell, it seems like getting a minion at 14th level seems pretty thematic for the warlock.

 

[niklinna]

Spirit Shroud isn't part of the playtest. Pact of the blade and its related invocations are. Spirit Shroud is found to be middling in most Gish builds, but OP is the one who already has a lot going for it. I wonder what's changed?

Your love for the Warlock class has blinded you from what everyone is saying: warlock can out-melee fighter, paladin and barbarian builds, out range the ranger and has access to 9th level spells to boot without having to sacrifice anything. It's too much.

I see my ranger problem* has been solved, then! I'll just play a warlock and claim to be a ranger in-character.

* Just the one? you may well sarcastically be asking, and you'd be right.

 

[Chaosmancer]

@Neonchameleon

I haven't caught up on this thread yet, but I figured posting here was better than de-railing the sorcerer thread more than necessary. I went ahead and did some DPR calculations. Yes, the three attacks from the warlock pact make it far better than it was. No, Spirit Shroud is not the problem.

For simple consistent math, I went with Sword and Board, and then added in the Eldritch blast using warlock. I made my calculations as accurate as possible, in the short time I had to work them. I also only used classes, not subclasses, because there is a degree of complexity in choosing a subclass that can skew results.

I used Red text to show where resources were used.

Class (level)	Damage Dice	Average calc	Average total	Bonuses
Fighter (1)	1d8+5	(9.5x1x0.65)+(4.5x0.05)	6.4
Fighter (5)	2d8+12	(10.5x2x0.65) + (4.5x2x0.05)	14.1	Action Surge = 28.2	Note: Action surge is 1/SR
Fighter (11)	3d8+21	(11.5x3x0.65) + (4.5x3x0.05)	23.1	Action Surge = 46.2
Paladin (1)	1d8+3	(7.5x1x0.65) + (4.5x1x0.05)	5.1
Paladin (5)	2d8+12	(10.5x2x0.65) + (4.5x2x0.05)	14.1	One Divine Smite = 23.1	Note: Multiple Spell slots available, and of higher level
Paladin (11)	4d8+14	(16x2x0.65) + (9x2x0.05)	21.7	One Divine Smite = 35.2
Barbarian (1)	1d8+5	(9.5x1x0.8775) + (4.5x1x0.0975)	8.775	Raging + Reckless Attack	Note: Reckless Attack increases damage the character takes, while rage may reduce it
Barbarian (5)	2d8+12	(10.5x2x0.8775) + (4.5x2x0.0975)	19.305	Raging + Reckless Attack
Barbarian (11)	2d8+16	(12.5x2x0.8775) + (11x2x0.0975)	24.0825	Raging + Reckless attack + Brutal Critical
Warlock, Blast (1)	1d10+3	(8.5x1x0.65) + (5.5x1x0.05)	5.8
Warlock, Blast (5)	2d10+8+2d6	(13x2x0.65) + (9x2x0.05)	17.8	W/O Hex = 12.9
Warlock, Blast (11)	3d10+15+3d6	(14x3x0.65) + (9x3x0.05)	28.65	W/O Hex = 21.3
Warlock, Blade (1)	1d8+3	(7.5x1x0.65) + (4.5x1x0.05)	5.1
Warlock, Blade (5)	2d8+8+2d6	(12x2x0.65) + (8x2x0.05)	16.4	W/O Hex = 11.5	Eldritch Smite = +18 damage
Warlock, Blade (11)	3d8+15+3d6+3d6	(16.5x3x0.65) + (11.5x3x0.05)	33.9	W/O Hex = 26.5	Eldritch Smite = +27 damage

So, looking at this table... no, I don't think the problem is Spirit Shroud. Because I didn't even use Spirit Shroud. Just using Hex the level 11 Bladelock is only beat on their turn by turn damage by a Fighter using Action Surge, or a Paladin using a 3rd level divine smite. And if the Warlock utilizes an Eldritch Smite, they laugh in the face of any martial.

And WITHOUT hex, they are still beating the Martials at their own game.

I also didn't even bother to calculate Barbarians who don't rage, because they do so little damage it isn't funny. In fact, if I took away reckless, they would be doing the least amount of damage of all the martials fairly consistently. And no, none of this is really changed by changing the weapons, because at that point you need to calculate EVERYONE with different weapons. Well, I guess it would make the Blastlock change its placing, But I'm already an hour late to bed.

Fair warning, it will take me a while to catch up to this thread and see any responses.

 

[Kinematics]

Been refining my spreadsheet, fixing some calculations and such. Here's some update on the warlock's results.

https://i.*****.com/ME1Cd9k.png

I switched from Hex to Spirit Shroud only at level 9. Other builds use Hex. Eldritch Smite is not included in any build.

Eldritch Blast gains a huge amount at level 17 because of the combination of a 4th attack and advantage from Foresight.

The rapier with Vex is right on par with the greatsword with Graze, up until level 17. That remains the case even if base accuracy is raised to 80%. Obviously Foresight gives very little extra to a weapon that's already getting steady advantage, so the rapier doesn't gain much, while the greatsword gets a good bump.

Compared with the barbarian and fighter:
https://i.*****.com/O0oN8kh.png
The Champion is decently ahead of the non-Shroud builds up til level 17. At 17, they catch up, or close enough, until level 20 when fighter gets its 4th attack. On the other hand, the Shroud build matches or exceeds the Champion from level 9 onward.

The top barbarian line is the Berserker, with tons of damage boosts. The red barbarian line is the Wild Heart, with basically no damage boosts from the subclass.

If the bladelock is limited to 2 attacks, rather than 3, this is where they line up:
https://i.*****.com/ZIAtRXZ.png

The Shroud build is basically on par with the Wild Heart barbarian. The Hex greatsword build is basically on par with Eldritch Blast from 11 to 16, before EB spikes way up at 17.

 

[Stalker0]

Been refining my spreadsheet, fixing some calculations and such. Here's some update on the warlock's results.

https://i.*****.com/ME1Cd9k.png

I switched from Hex to Spirit Shroud only at level 9. Other builds use Hex. Eldritch Smite is not included in any build.

Eldritch Blast gains a huge amount at level 17 because of the combination of a 4th attack and advantage from Foresight.

The rapier with Vex is right on par with the greatsword with Graze, up until level 17. That remains the case even if base accuracy is raised to 80%. Obviously Foresight gives very little extra to a weapon that's already getting steady advantage, so the rapier doesn't gain much, while the greatsword gets a good bump.

Compared with the barbarian and fighter:
https://i.*****.com/O0oN8kh.png
The Champion is decently ahead of the non-Shroud builds up til level 17. At 17, they catch up, or close enough, until level 20 when fighter gets its 4th attack. On the other hand, the Shroud build matches or exceeds the Champion from level 9 onward.

The top barbarian line is the Berserker, with tons of damage boosts. The red barbarian line is the Wild Heart, with basically no damage boosts from the subclass.

If the bladelock is limited to 2 attacks, rather than 3, this is where they line up:
https://i.*****.com/ZIAtRXZ.png

The Shroud build is basically on par with the Wild Heart barbarian. The Hex greatsword build is basically on par with Eldritch Blast from 11 to 16, before EB spikes way up at 17.

Since the top builds all utilized pole arm master....shouldn't the bladelock be using this as well? None of the bladelock notes so far utilize any feats, so they easily have a feat to take PAM.

 

[Neonchameleon]

@Neonchameleon

I haven't caught up on this thread yet, but I figured posting here was better than de-railing the sorcerer thread more than necessary. I went ahead and did some DPR calculations. Yes, the three attacks from the warlock pact make it far better than it was. No, Spirit Shroud is not the problem.

For simple consistent math, I went with Sword and Board, and then added in the Eldritch blast using warlock.

Warlocks of course having no proficiency with shields by default... Also you entirely left out the impact of feats so far as I can tell - and those have changed a lot. So basically you're comparing the new warlock to the 2014 fighter. And it's unclear what you've done with the fighter's third feat.

For the record a level 5 One D&D fighter, barbarian, or paladin should have a Str of 18 and a damage bonus from something like Charger or Great Weapon Master. Add that in to the mix and things change. A level 11 fighter should have a Str of 20 and three feats. Meanwhile a warlock's only combat feat that adds to Cha is War Caster.

Yes, if you miss fairly significant changes and class features off one side of the equation that the other can't take in the name of "simplicity" you get odd results. (This of course is another OneD&D change; the Chaladin is probably viable but due to feats they aren't the monster they are in 2014 D&D)

 

[Neonchameleon]

Since the top builds all utilized pole arm master....shouldn't the bladelock be using this as well? None of the bladelock notes so far utilize any feats, so they easily have a feat to take PAM.

Action economy. Hex requires a bonus action to retarget - and PAM uses its bonus action for the extra attack (while falling below great weapons if you don't take this extra attack). This means that even if it is higher it's only higher against a giant blob of tofu in a white room that doesn't hit back.

 

[Kinematics]

Since the top builds all utilized pole arm master....shouldn't the bladelock be using this as well? None of the bladelock notes so far utilize any feats, so they easily have a feat to take PAM.

Because of the uncertainty of whether warlocks can take feats with a prerequisite of proficiency in martial weapons based solely on Pact of the Blade, I have not been including any in my charts.

In the event it could be used, and ignoring the conflict with the bonus action, it would be an increase of roughly 15 DPR from level 11 on up. Taking off one bonus action roughly takes off that fraction of the gain relative to the fight length (ie: 1 bonus action on a 3 round fight would lose 1/3 of the 15 DPR).

Ignoring the bonus action limits, PAM would put the Shroud build on par with the Berserker barbarian.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Because of the uncertainty of whether warlocks can take feats with a prerequisite of proficiency in martial weapons based solely on Pact of the Blade, I have not been including any in my charts.

In the event it could be used, and ignoring the conflict with the bonus action, it would be an increase of roughly 15 DPR from level 11 on up. Taking off one bonus action roughly takes off that fraction of the gain relative to the fight length (ie: 1 bonus action on a 3 round fight would lose 1/3 of the 15 DPR).

This makes me question your math. A butt-strike does d4 + 5 (stat) + d6 (thirsting) + d6 (hex) damage on a hit = 14.5 damage. I fail to see how this could be turned into 15 dpr after both modifiers to hit and lowered damage for the primary end unless you somehow get the reaction every round.