D&D (2024) The new warlock (Packet 7)

[Kobold Stew]

Because of the uncertainty of whether warlocks can take feats with a prerequisite of proficiency in martial weapons based solely on Pact of the Blade, I have not been including any in my charts.

Do you honestly believe the text is uncertain?
It seems clear to me that they would not qualify, any more than a Belt of Giant Strength would qualify you to multiclass in fighter.

 

[Kinematics]

This makes me question your math. A butt-strike does d4 + 5 (stat) + d6 (thirsting) + d6 (hex) damage on a hit = 14.5 damage. I fail to see how this could be turned into 15 dpr after both modifiers to hit and lowered damage for the primary end unless you somehow get the reaction every round.

That number was from the Shroud build, so 2d8, not 1d6. That's an extra 5.5, plus crits.

Though I was also just estimating based on the graph, not checking the exact values. For more exact values, I get 64.325 DPR at level 12 (assurance of 20 Cha) with PAM/glaive, compared to 52.625 with greatsword and no PAM. At level 20 (which also gets Foresight and 22 Cha), it goes from 72.161 with the greatsword to 87.664 with PAM.

So a range of +12 to +15.5.

To break it down at level 20, the greatsword does 1.4 more damage per primary hit, for 4.2 more damage over three attacks. The glaive gives 8.34 damage with the bonus hit, +2.94 damage from Lifedrinker, and +8.44 from Shroud. Net gain of 15.5 per round. (All numbers already factor in accuracy and crits. There's also some hidden rounding in the less significant digits, since I'm only showing two or three decimal digits.)

You can look at the current version of my spreadsheet here. It's a bit complicated, so feel free to ask questions.

Do you honestly believe the text is uncertain?
It seems clear to me that they would not qualify, any more than a Belt of Giant Strength would qualify you to multiclass in fighter.

I'm fairly sure it doesn't qualify, but I can see it argued that it does. Since I think the weight of the argument is on the "does not qualify" side, I didn't include them, so as to not overinflate the panic over the warlock's damage potential (which is strong enough even without that). If I thought things weighed more towards "does qualify", I'd include them, with the caveat that it might be an overestimate.

 

[Remathilis]

 

[Chaosmancer]

No, its different because its a Caster class, that 'ranged attack' is a Spell, and its supposed to be the hook upon which the class is balanced. Thats the difference.

Everything else just contributes to the embarrassment of riches which is the Warlock core design, but EB being at the center of the class design and balanced against it being a 'caster, but with almost no spell slots' makes it what it is.

Adding MELEE attacks, when other classes dont get to 3 even if they are dedicated melee classes, is egregious.

There are still a few more pages before I catch up, but there is something I think you need to deeply consider about your opinion on this.

Crossbow Expert.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Enthusiastically positive, with some reasonable suggestions for down-tuning Blade and Eldritch Blast.

 

[Pauln6]

I was in favour of aligning Eldritch Blast to warlock level to curtail some of its excesses. As for pact of the blade, would a class feature similar to the war cleric allowing a third attack as a bonus action meet in the middle?

 

[Kobold Stew]

I was in favour of aligning Eldritch Blast to warlock level to curtail some of its excesses. As for pact of the blade, would a class feature similar to the war cleric allowing a third attack as a bonus action meet in the middle?

Except that's the way the War Priest gets a SECOND attack, not a third. You'd need to dip into Fighter or something for 5 levels to get it up to a third.

 

[Pauln6]

Except that's the way the War Priest gets a SECOND attack, not a third. You'd need to dip into Fighter or something for 5 levels to get it up to a third.

Yes but priests get additional damage to their attacks on top. So, my question remains. If some people feel that bladelocks fall behind blasters, would a feature similar to the warpriest, giving them an occasional third attack deal with the objections on both sides?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Warlocks of course having no proficiency with shields by default... Also you entirely left out the impact of feats so far as I can tell - and those have changed a lot. So basically you're comparing the new warlock to the 2014 fighter. And it's unclear what you've done with the fighter's third feat.

Sigh, well, it was too much to hope for we could discuss the numbers I had instead of immediately saying I did it wrong. Fine, let's talk about feats.

Also, if we want to insist on pointing out the Warlock can't really sword and baord, then there is no issue in upping all their damage dice to d10's

For the record a level 5 One D&D fighter, barbarian, or paladin should have a Str of 18 and a damage bonus from something like Charger or Great Weapon Master.

Wrong. At least, wrong unless you start with two odd scores.

The only way you are getting 18 strength and a feat is if you decide to start level 1 at 17 strength, meaning your secondary score is 15. So, if a fighter wants 18 strength, they need to accept a 15 Con, reducing their overall hitpoints and survivability. Not that you can't make that trade, it just isn't a trade I think every single character is going to make every single time.

Also, Greatweapon Master doesn't work with Sword and Board. In fact, of the new feats, the only straight damage increase Sword and Board can get is Charger. Which requires moving 10 ft towards your target, and gives you +1d8 on that single attack you make afterwards. I can include it if you want, but that is quite literally a difference of ~3 points on a single turn, and only activates again if they can move again.

You will note the numbers at level 11 (the problem level) have the Bladelock without hex or Eldrtich smite ahead of the fighter by 3 points, ahead of the barbarian by 2 points, and ahead of the paladin by 5 points. And this is before I switch the Bladelock to 1d10 damage dice, for using the weapon two-handed. Meaning it looks like even with Charger added.. the Bladelock will come out ahead.

So, how about this. Instead of me trying to guess what you want, give me your best fighter build, your best paladin build, and your best barbarian build, and I'll see if I can make a Bladelock that surprasses them at level 11. Be warned though, if you pick a subclass, then I will pick a subclass.

Add that in to the mix and things change. A level 11 fighter should have a Str of 20 and three feats. Meanwhile a warlock's only combat feat that adds to Cha is War Caster.

And who needs combat feats when you are already beating everyone in martial damage? Especially when taking something like Warcaster is BRUTAL on the Bladelock.

Yes, if you miss fairly significant changes and class features off one side of the equation that the other can't take in the name of "simplicity" you get odd results. (This of course is another OneD&D change; the Chaladin is probably viable but due to feats they aren't the monster they are in 2014 D&D)

Strawman and false. I didn't miss anything. I knew there was a single feat for the fighter I wasn't accounting for, and I knew that Sword and Board characters didn't have combat feats to increase their damage by a significant degree. And I NERFED the Bladelock damage by keeping with the one-handed weapon instead of two-handed in the entire example.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Because of the uncertainty of whether warlocks can take feats with a prerequisite of proficiency in martial weapons based solely on Pact of the Blade, I have not been including any in my charts.

In the event it could be used, and ignoring the conflict with the bonus action, it would be an increase of roughly 15 DPR from level 11 on up. Taking off one bonus action roughly takes off that fraction of the gain relative to the fight length (ie: 1 bonus action on a 3 round fight would lose 1/3 of the 15 DPR).

Ignoring the bonus action limits, PAM would put the Shroud build on par with the Berserker barbarian.

Weapon Training is a 1st level feat they get for free, if they wanted proficiency with a MArtial Polearm to unlock those feats. I don't think they need them, but it is there.