In retrospect.
Given your age when Empire came out, you missed how big of a splash Star Wars made when it came out. My brother and I saw it more than a dozen times in the theater in the first year, and we were hardly alone. By the time Empire came out, audience members literally knew every word of the original screenplay (which is why so many older fans were upset about the story changes in the special editions).
And then Empire came along and announced that a lot of that wasn't true.
It wasn't a Highlander 2 rejection of the premise of Star Wars (which would have required, I guess, something like it turning out to all have taken place on Earth or something), but a lot of people felt that making the wise Gandalf-type into a liar was really upsetting and an attack on the core of the original movie, that the Rebellion getting its butt handed to it was a disturbing development and an intentional rejection of the hopeful nature of the first movie and I remember literal fights on the playground over the question of whether Darth Vader was telling the truth about being Luke's father.
Sure, and I wasn't there so I can only go by what you and others have told me (the overall impression I had was people by and large liked the twist, but that is just from the vantage point I occupied growing up in the 80s and hearing accounts from adults I knew---and since then hearing from friends who were a little older than me). One thing I did hear was the critique of Obi Wan. But what I think I heard more than people being upset he was turned into a liar (honestly it is a fairly understandable lie given the circumstances) was more eye rolling at Obi Wan's later explanation of it being true 'from a certain point of view'. I don't think the first trilogy is above critique. I am not a particularly adamant star wars fan (I would even be reluctant to label myself a fan, since Star Wars fan means something more invested than I have been).
But I don't doubt there were fights on the playground over it (I sure remember fights over other media on the playground when I was a kid).
In retrospect, all of that stuff worked out.
Yes, I think we agree here. Where I disagree, is my sense is things like the Last Jedi, while they were praised by a lot of critics when they came out, will not be seen to have worked out as well in retrospect. Now I could be wrong. I don't want to give the impression this is some objective view everyone has to agree with. I just strongly feel this way about the new trilogy. And I don't think it is unique to the new trilogy either (it isn't like it is especially bad compared to other things being made in the last ten years). But I have noticed a lot of the media that comes out feels much more of the moment and disposable (tons of movies that drove conversations a few years ago seem forgotten). Now that is always happening, but it seems more prevalent today to me and I think a big reason why is the way movies and shows are being constructed in response and or anticipation of online discourse around the film.
There are definitely exceptions, and I don't want to give the wrong impression here, I do think there will be things that Last Jedi will be remembered for. Like I said, it is a beautiful film, probably the most beautiful star wars film ever shot, and that is definitely an achievement on Johnson's part. There are also a lot of elements of the film that work individually even if they fail to tie to other parts of the trilogy (and that last part is only half on Johnson, maybe less, because he didn't make the third movie, and had he done so, I imagine he would have tied a lot of those threads together.
Still, I don't think it was Empire Strikes back level in terms of how it will be remembered. It did have warmth (primality in the Finn and Rose relationship) but for me it lacked that emotional heft and operatic vibrato of Vader extending his hand, revealing he is Luke's son and Luke making a choice (beats of that were in Last Jedi but they felt so off and pale compared to Empire to me).
But again, Disney, for reasons I would love to hear articulated by someone in the know some day, didn't think that any kind of pre-planning was necessary, either before or after TLJ.
Where I agree with you is 80 percent of this is on Disney at least. There was no coherent planning, they even seemed to pit directors against one another, and by extension portions of the fandom against one another (I mean I might disagree with you about last jedi's quality as a movie but there is no reason for you and me, or anyone taking any position on a star wars movie to dislike one another or engage with one another in a hostile way online: and I think Disney helped stoke some of that, seeing it as a type of marketing).
Yes. And yet, Andor and Rogue One and season one of the Mandalorian show it's not necessary for it to be the center of successful Star Wars stories.
Sure, that definitely seems to be true. At the same time, the only thing really getting me to a star wars movie is those original characters, as I haven't had any interest in the Mandalorian, Rogue One or anything else they have released. I went to the prequels for Anakin's backstory and I came to the new movies hoping we would have a new generation of sky walkers (and to be fair we kind of did, but it was really weirdly plotted out and didn't land emotionally for me: and the thing that matters most for my viewing is that a film land emotionally)
Your complaints mostly boil down to "this didn't work for me," but you're characterizing them more along the lines of "this doesn't work, period," which isn't true, even if you don't agree with the folks for whom it worked for.
If I am, I apologize. I don't pretend that any of this is objective. I do think my criticism of having a three part story where each entry is at war with another part is sound (I even think you might agree with that). But even that is a subjective take (I am sure there is someone out there who is fascinated by the strange structure of the trilogy). So definitely not intending my statements to be seen as objective statements of fact (there is a heavily implied IMO in most of my posts I think)
Again, different strokes for different folks. When Snoke got cut in half, it was literally the first time in decades (since Empire, to be precise) that I was surprised by a Star Wars movie and didn't know what was coming next. And I found that thrilling.
And that is fair, if you loved it, I can' take that away from you. All I can say is it didn't land the same for me. I do think it would have landed well had they followed that with Ren and Rey joining together (I think that would have been a genuinely interesting shift in direction). So to the extent that this plot beat could have fed that, I don't fault it. I wasn't especially into Snoke, so I can't say that aspect of the movie was something that broke it for me.
